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Post by Broxton Carol on May 14, 2008 11:42:35 GMT -8
Everybody knows the royal aquamaster is the easiest breathing 2 hoser there is, BUT what is the worlds worst breathing vintage regulator? Ive been told the Aqua matic is a dog, and that the waterlung double hoser sucks! What other vintage regs do you know of that ought to come on a leash?  |
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Post by diverdown1955 on May 14, 2008 12:51:08 GMT -8
CHUCK, MY VOTE GOES TO THE ORIGINAL DACOR DOUBLE DIAPHRAM 2 HOSER W/O THE DIAL A BREATH FEATURE. IT WAS BUILT LIKE A TANK AND WAS BETTER THAN A BOWFLEX WORKOUT UNDERWATER!  FAUX JERRY diverdown1955 |
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Post by swimjim on May 14, 2008 14:28:01 GMT -8
I had a Dacor Diving Lung with Dial a Death. That was far and away the worst reg I've ever experienced. I now own a Dacor C3 Clipper and that reg rocks!
Jim
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YankDownUnder
Pro Diver
Broxton 'green label' Aqua Lung and 1954 USD Rene triple 44s.
Posts: 162
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Post by YankDownUnder on May 14, 2008 14:33:23 GMT -8
Jerry,
I must disagree! To say the 'dial-a-death' Dacor is the worst regulator is grossly unfair. It assumes that the other Dacor double hose regulators are not equally bad. I bought a great Dacor from Hawaii. It was absolutely new and in perfect condition. I paid $165 and thought I got a bargain. I soon found out that breathing from it was like sucking a golf ball up a garden hose. I loved the appearance of the regulator and liked them from their early ads. It is amazing that they are still in business. Mine was the last model sold and it has got to be as bad as their first, because if it was any harder to breathe than this, death would certainly follow. The only thing worse would be to use it with the tank valve turned off.
As for your 'dial-a-death', why any manufacture would think a diver would want his breathing to be harder and would go to the expense of adding a dial to do just that, is almost unbelievable.
Seriously, there were many myths associated with diving in the early days. Having it hard to breathe was thought of, as a way to conserve air. It was much harder to buy compressed air in the early days than it was to buy oxygen. The early imported tanks, which came from France, had "Use Compressed Air Only" stamped on them, as did some of the regulators for that very reason. Tanks often had to be shipped off to commercial gas companies to be filled. New divers had to be warned not to try to get air at a gas station. There really was very little use for high pressure air in those days. Not much was understood by early sport divers and many were just spear fishermen looking for a way to find bigger fish. They already had the basic skills and as long as they didn't hold their breath whilst ascending, most were okay.
Tank boots were thought dangerous because the tank could fall over and it was better to have it laying down to start with. If you have ever seen a Rescue Pak, you are still laughing. One was featured on Sea Hunt. Picture a CO2 cartidge in a zip lock bag, folded up and attached to the waist belt. All it would do is help searchers find the body. We also taught that 71.2 cu ft tanks were designed so you would never have to decompress, provided you only used one in a 24 hour period. Divers often carried war surplus shark repellent too. If you have ever tried to stab a shark you will know that the big leg knives were useless and they were known as 'shark knives'. The list goes on....
These myths were perpetuated by moronic non-diving screen writers who refered to scuba tanks as "oxygen bottles" (Boy on a Dolphin w/ Sophia Loren) and "using up oxygen" diving for treasure (Underwater w/ Jane Russell). In Boy on a Dolphin, Alan Ladd instructs Sophia Loren to hold her breath while diving and when she asks about her ears, he says she will get used to it. As commercialized as PADI is, the instruction today is much better.
Perhaps "Early Myths" might be our next thread.
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Post by duckbill on May 14, 2008 21:12:02 GMT -8
I have a Dacor R-4 which breathes GREAT (not dial-a-breath, but still a double diaphragm).
The worst reg I have experienced so far has been a Voit MR-12! Now, before I get jumped on for that one, I guess I should mention that it has the original, crinkly, "non-stretchy" laminated fabric second stage diaphragm. I'm sure that was the reason for the difficulty. I had it tuned as good as it could be just before the dive.
To be fair, though, I've only dived 8 different models of regulators, not counting rentals.
(Single Hose)
Oceanic, Alpha 7
USD Aquarius
Voit MR-12
(Double Hose)
USD DAAM
USD DW Mistral
Dacor R-4
AquaLung Mistral (modern)
RAM
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YankDownUnder
Pro Diver
Broxton 'green label' Aqua Lung and 1954 USD Rene triple 44s.
Posts: 162
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Post by YankDownUnder on May 16, 2008 16:56:56 GMT -8
Duckbill,
Thanks for the reply about you R4 breathing well. Because of that I suspected that my regulator was not very well tuned at the factory so pulled it apart. The tilt levers both had legs spread too wide and the split pin was poorly spread. The bottom pivot clip was burred as well. After correcting those problems I replaced the hose valves with silicone and lubed the contact points with silicone grease. Now it breathes well. I do not expect the neoprene parts to last so long even if not used, but I am still surprized at how poorly it had been tuned at the factory. Thanks again for the motivation to do what was needed.
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Post by SeaRat on May 16, 2008 17:46:04 GMT -8
The worst-breathing regulator that I ever had was the DA Aqualung before Broxton Chuck got ahold of it, and corrected it. I had to turn on my back to get air out if it on a dive in Clear Lake to about 50 feet. I have used a lot of different regulators, and any regulator which is not tuned will be bad. I did a check on the breathing of a Scubapro single hose regulator, and found it had a cracking effort of greater than 10 inches. Here is a part of an investigation into a fatal diving accident I conducted in May of 1987: This shows that even the best regulators need to be maintained. I had about two more pages for that report, which detailed the pre-accident events, the dive, the accident sequence, post accident events, and my equipment evaluation. The regulator was a ScubaPro Mk V first stage updated to include the Mk10 cap, and an adjustable second stage by ScubaPro. The main O-ring on the first stage piston was dry and leaked. I have used many regulators, and have found that even when correctly maintained, some have design flaws. Here is a rundown of double hose regs: --My Trieste II was a very hard-breathing regulator until I made three modifications to it (different LP diaphragm, different venturi, and re-oriented the venturi so that it was maximally effective). --I have a Sportsways Hydro Twin, which is a dream of a regulator with HP and LP ports, but it needed the hose system replaced with a USD system. --The Healthways Scuba and Scuba Deluxe regulators also had an undersized hose/mouthpiece system. --The AMF Voit 50 Fathom had the wrong venturi aimed down the hoses, or aimed at the back of the case. With the large hole aimed down the intake hose, it breaths about like a RAM. --Dacor messed up the lever system with the R-4 and subsequent regulators, but having that large bow in the main lever that went down the secondary lever, making it harder to breathe as the diver inhaled harder (by decreasing rather than increasing the leverage on the system). The original Dacor Dial-a-Breath actually was a pretty good regulator, and when set up right, would have a venturi that was self-sustaining. I straightened out the R-4 primary lever, found it breathed better, and gave it to a Dacor rep who promptly lost it. I was given a prototype Dacor Pacer as a replacement. --The Snark III has an undersized mouthpiece, and breathes much better wihout the non-return valves or with a USD hose/mouthpiece system. Also, at least in the older models, the venturi went up and lifted up the diaphragm, cancelling out the venturi. I put a piece of plastic from a milk jug above it, deflecting the air down the intake hose, and it worked wonderfully.   On the single hose side of things: --Concerning the MR12, it's actually a pretty good regulator, and breathes well with a flexible LP diaphragm. --Perhaps the worst I've owned was the Healthways Scuba Star, my second regulator in the early 1960s. But as a kid, and with the water-column advantages of a single hose regulator, I did not notice it until I got an AMF Voit VCR-1 "40" Fathom Viking, Model I. That essentially is the original USD Calypso regulator, with the exhaust in the LP diaphragm and exhaust "wings" on the box. That was a very nice breathing regulator, balanced, and a wonderful upgrade for me. I continued using it into my days with the USAF.  I now have two USD original Calypso regulators, and I would dive them just about anywhere, even though the exhaust was too small for it to meet US Navy standards. Note that this regulator, which Hannes Keller took to 1000 feet, was considered a hard-breathing regulator by the US Navy because of its standards for exhaust. When the MR12 came out, and passed the US Navy tests becoming the first US Navy Approved single hose regulator, USD had to make some changes, and enlarged the Calypso exhaust. I believe the MR12 is named because it passed the Military Regulation (could that reg be #12?). Well, I just looked it up in my AMF spec sheet for the MR12, and it says "Performance of the Mr12 exceeds requirements of Mil-R24169 (Ships) as indicated." I have one on my Trieste II as an octopus, and like it a lot. Saying all this, don't do any mods that I've described unless you are willing to experiment and take full responsibility for this piece of life-support gear. John |
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Post by duckbill on May 16, 2008 21:35:46 GMT -8
John, your close-up photo of the plastic air diverter shows cracking around the screws. Might want to check it out just so you don't have loose plastic in your reg during a dive sometime.
I had always been a little surprised by all the negative press regarding the R-4 in light of how well mine performs. I think it may mostly boil down to tuning. Also, each individual reg of the same design seems to have it's own "personality". I would guess that some designs are inherently more tempermental or sensitive to tuning than others. Maybe that's why some really do need tuning every year, while others only seem to need it when the rubber parts begin to need replacing. Or why so many non-vintage divers are under the impression that all double hose regulators are "hard to breathe".
YankDownUnder, I'm glad you got your R-4 running smoothly. I've heard other reports of untouched Dacors having apparently been less-than-optimally tuned at the factory.
Now I need to try my Healthways Scuba Star out. There must be a reason I haven't dived it yet. Maybe a part I couldn't find. Can't remember.
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Post by SeaRat on May 16, 2008 22:24:00 GMT -8
Duckbill, These are the same photos I posted, and the cracking was already commented upon. That Snark III is currently disassembled, and before I put it back together I'll replace the plastic. Thanks. The R-4 is an interesting regulator. I took a Dial-a-Breath, and got all the R-4 replacement parts for it in the 1970s. I rebuilt it, and that is what I'm basing my opinion upon. I think most of them are unbalanced first stages, except for the last batch in 1978. The unbalanced R-4s need to be tuned at a tank pressure of about 500 psi, as they will have an interstage pressure rise throughout the dive (just like the DA Aquamaster). That last Dacor two-hose regulator was known as the Model C3NB Balanced Two Hose Regulator. If I were to get a chance, that's the one I'd want to buy. But basically, I was disappointed in my rebuilt Dacor Dial-a-Breath R-4. I did dive my Dacor R-4 several times, here in 1973 or so (I can tell by the wet suit):  John |
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Post by luis on May 17, 2008 6:58:37 GMT -8
I believe the MR12 is named because it passed the Military Regulation (could that reg be #12?). John What I have seen from a couple of sources: MR12: Military Regulator, 1 hose, 2 stages |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2008 16:09:01 GMT -8
That last Dacor two-hose regulator was known as the Model C3NB Balanced Two Hose Regulator. If I were to get a chance, that's the one I'd want to buy. SeaRat, I just happen to have a Brand New out of the wrapper C3N that I bought in 06 from a down and out truckdriver. It and a DA I also bought from him belonged to his dad who ran a DS. This thing never has seen water.........interesting enough it does not have the second diaphgram with the exhaust valve but a flutter valve like the USD's........ It does not state it is balanced, and the size of the nozzle seems to indicate this is true.......the 1st stage is the same height as the 2 R4's I have. Also, the vane for the dial-a-breath is solidered in the full open position and the adustment post on the outside was removed during manufacture. Is the C3NB like this? The 2nd stage is typical Dacor.......no venturi......just a big wide mouth pointing to the intake horn.........and the 2nd stage mouth is not level with the horn so much air is bounced around in the can just like the R4's. I may try it out this summer, just for fun........but it is strictly a vintage diving reg........the yoke is too short for a banjo and there are no lp ports at all.............. |
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Post by SeaRat on May 17, 2008 16:37:45 GMT -8
Oldmossback,
Your description is very interesting. Does it have a HP outlet for a gauge? It sounds like it does not, as you stated that the yolk does not have room for a banjo.
The Model C3N was inthe 1977 Dacor catalog, and the C3NB was in the 1978 Dacor catalog. Here is what each said:
That was the unbalanced C3N regulator. Now for the balanced one in the 1978 catalog:
I think 1978 may have been the last that the Dacor double hose regulators were offered, but cannot confirm that as I don't have later catalogs. Anyway, the C3NB regulator probably had a very limited production run.
John
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2008 18:02:06 GMT -8
John
My C3N does not have a hp port...........it is the same 1st stage body as the R4....just a lot prettier......the whole reg body is polished chrome and is correct in that description you have..........mine has never seen water......maybe this summer.......
I replaced the flutter valve it has (was rotted) with one from Dan's and it is almost too short..........just makes the center of the diaphgram...........funny but the reg has the exhaust ring to use a 2nd exhaust diaphgram........do not know why they moved away from that design...........
I am going to send you a photo of my modified R4 to your email address...............
Michael
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Post by SeaRat on Sept 19, 2010 16:40:08 GMT -8
--The AMF Voit 50 Fathom had the wrong venturi aimed down the hoses, or aimed at the back of the case. With the large hole aimed down the intake hose, it breaths about like a RAM. John Years ago I made this declaration, and have posted in other areas that I thought Voit had done this purposely to keep this regulator breathing not-so-well as the more expensive Voit Navy. Well, Greg has weighed in, and corrected me. I appreciate that. Here is his quote: |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2010 15:08:00 GMT -8
John (SeaRat) PM sent
Mossback
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