Post by dogsbodydiving on Feb 18, 2005 14:06:55 GMT -8
Hi Dale (Fellow PADI person)
I agree about the extra divers PADI bring on board. Females top of list, always seemed a macho sport, unless you knew differently.(No offence meant there guys). Reminder to myself LIPSTICK is a must when demonstrating skills. Not so sure on it being good for trade tho especially here. They do the pool and paperwork then qualify abroad where they don't buy they hire... The really sad thing is we as PADI all teach by the same 'Bible' apparently, but most seem to accept the 'minimum' requirements that are stated not taking into account they maybe learning to dive in the crystal waters of the Maldives which is totally different to diving here. Many a time we have had people do A/O/W abroad & they think they can jump into 30mtrs here with no problem. They are not even aware of climate or visual differences.
Dont mean to moan but that's what I think....and it's not a dig at you either
Boy Oh Boy have I been waiting to hear a discussion of "old ways" versus today's "NEW' divers
Being only 51 and diving 34 years I know I'm probably considered a "kid" in this forum. I also started diving before national certification really became a requirement. I did "ditch and dons", one breath Mask/Fins/Snorkel retrievals, bailouts, standard buddy breathing and other "old" skills on the way to become a "qualified" diver....
What I've seen as others already mentioned is progress and regress all at the same time....Yes, training has been shortened, but anyone who's ever read the PADI modular course would see "performance based learning" IS built in. The breakdown is due to money potential and time constraints people demand to become a scuba diver....plus store owners with $$$$$ in their eyes versus creating a safe, fun loving scuba diver who'll continue to progress in the sport, purchase gear, go on trips and recommend friends get into diving......
If done properly by a good instructor even the modern PADI course can create a comfortable "learner's permit certified" diver....Then experience and varied conditions will help develop polished skills. Dive clubs used to fill that role....Where I'm at in Ohio there aren't many dive clubs left...Those that exist too many times allow club members to go on trips local or afar with sub-standard and sometimes dangerous equipment....I've seen it....A guy getting ready to ICE DIVE with a regulator I wouldn't trust in a pool....Idiots going an ocean trip with a BC that won't hold air, etc., etc. Local back yard diving and traveling out on the "Big O" are two distinctly different environments....Our upcoming dives in the springs is like diving in a pool....No big physical demands......Other than walking to and from the entry point with your tank on
Another breakdown I see is the instructors themselves.....Terrible condition, couldn't snorkel or swim if they had to, no buoyancy control (so they don't know how to teach it....) blah, blah, blah....The agencies should be ashamed in this regard.....
I've often told people I could teach someone to dive in 3 hours if they could become confident in 6 skills. Mask clearing, snorkel clearing, regulator recovery and clearing, proper fin kicks, buoyancy control including proper weighting and fine tuning via breath control and finally monitoring your air/depth/time. That's it.....Certain things I believe are a "make or break" training situation in becoming a safe diver and enjoying the sport...Mask clearing and water around your nose is #1 in my book. I've seen more near misses and panics from this Numero' Uno' skill than I care to admit. Next would be buoyancy and new divers getting in over their head (depth wise) by not watching their instruments... Like your remaining AIR...You have no idea how important AIR is underwater
No one ever drowned in the dang classroom and understanding and reciting physic's laws versus understanding a principle of a particular law and what it actually means to us as divers are two different things....(Sheesh......now I sound like an old geezer
As always we can find ourselves lamenting for the "good old days". I personally remember diving EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND YEAR ROUND IN OHIO IN A DAMN WET SUIT!!!! Just to get wet and blow some bubbles.....Back then it was fun.....Now I want SOME comfort to my diving.
Your Mileage May Vary and we can all agree to disagree....But today's diving opportunites and gear isn't as bad as some make it out to be.....
"Nemrod, its OK, you don't have to agree with me Really, its ok, just stating my opinion. And you know what they say about opinions "
I wish it were just opinion but like gravity, the poor state of instruction by Padi and now most other agencies is incontrovertible. Fortunately most people are wiser than we give them credit for and those who don't belong in the water and are unwilling to improve their skills quickly give the sport up (ebay and pawn shops and penny papers are filled with the remains of the day) and the remainder realize they need more instruction and somehow get it to their credit. Nemrod
A few comments seem now to be in order, after reading the most recent posts. I started this thread as a result of a specific situation, and then I and others have generalized it to a comparison of today's training with that of yesteryear. But the instruction of yesteryear was also pretty varied.
Concerning the macho inage, and the role of women in diving in the 1960s, I can remember several prominent women in our diving clubs (where the junior and senior divers had separate clubs). I was in the Salem Junior Aqua Club in Salem, Oregon. My girl friend of the time was also in it, and she was diving right alongside us throughout. There were some women in diving at the time. Just look at Zale Perry, or Dr. Eugenie Clark, or Jeanie-Bear Sleeper if you want some inspiration.
Concerning the "weeding out" of divers by NAUI and other groups, this simply was not the case. NAUI was committed to providing quality instruction, and "Safety through Education." The requirements were rather stiff, because the diving environment was unforgiving. We were taught to look at fitness for diving in three ways: anatomic fitness, physiological fitness and psychological fitness. There were various criterion used; a medical exam for anatomic fitness and tests for physiological fitness.
For the physiological and water skills tests, here's what the NAUI Blue Book (8/1975) stated were basic scuba diving course standards:
6. The required water skills which are to be covered during a Basic Course are:
a) Swimming Skills (no Equipment)
1) Distance swim of 220 yards, nonstop, any stroke. 2) Survival swim for 10 minutes, treading, bobbing, floating, drownproofing. etc. 3) Underwater swim of 20 yards.
b) Skin Diving Skills (Mask, Snorkel, Fins)
1) Distance swim of 440 yards, nonstop, using no hands. 2) Complete rescue of another diver in deep water. 3) Practice and perform without stress, proper techniques including: Water entries/exits, surface dives, swimming with fins, clearing the snorkel, ditching the weight belt, buoyancy control with the personal floatation vest, underwater swimming and surfacing.
c) Scuba Diving Skills (Skin and Scuba Equipment)
1) Repeat all listed skin diving skills while using scuba. 2) Tow another fully equipped scuba diver 100 yards. 3) Practice and perform without stress, proper techniques including: mask and mouthpiece clearing, buddy breathing, emergency swimming ascents, alternating between snorkel and scuba.
d) Open Water Skin and Scuba Diving
1) Perform without stress: water entries/exits, surface dives, buoyancy control and surfacing techniques that are erquired to do surface, underwater and survival swimming with both skin and scuba equipment. 2) Make a complete rescue of a buddy diver. 3) With scuba equipment: clear mask and mouthpiece, buddy breathe, alternate between snorkel and scuba and make a concrolled emergency swimming ascent.
The real point here is the emphasis on "Perform without stress..." During our instructor's class, it was repeatedly emphasized that we pass a student on a skill only when we felt that person was competant enough to dive with our own loved one as a buddy. When you have that perspective, suddenly it is a bit different criterion than simply saying the student completed the task.
Concerning the psychological criterion, NAUI stated that the student was usually the best one to make that evaluation. My experience was that students did selfdetermine whether diving was in the cards for them. A few decided not to continue. I was able to get one Oregon State University exchange student from Japan to settle down and enjoy a dive after he "freaked" on cool stream water. We were in a small river,pool, and when he could not stand up, he paniced. I was able to get him quieted down enough to get used to the environment, and we then completed an enjoyable dive together.
I remember lot's of women divers from that time. Women are often better swimmers than men or certainly as good. Some of the best if not the best distance swimmers have been women. The point is I don't think that having standards and requiring students to meet them is macho or precludes women or teens. What it does mean is that they meet the standard. We have no standards now. I watched a Padi course given in two days in the Y pool while I was playing with my gear recently. It was pitiful. The instructor himself was very weak in the water. I saw nothing to give me hope that any of the six students could possibly dive on their own safely. Look, I saw him and them dog paddling, you don't have to be a great swimmer and it is not macho to expect a scuba student to have at least some base swimming skill but dog paddling? Nemrod
Post by dogsbodydiving on Feb 22, 2005 14:02:29 GMT -8
Hi guys & gals
I think I may have worded my last post wrongly. My diving is a lot lot better than my literatury skills which are c**p, both in reading & writing. Maybe I should have said 'Male Orientated' rather than 'Macho'? Yes there were prominent women but was that because there were not many female divers about at that time? It may have been different over there but here we had one of the largest BSAC clubs local to our shop & out of 150 aprox members only 3 of them were female. Yes we may be better swimmers but if you cant get your buddy out of trouble (Male or Female) 1mtr away what's the use of being able to swim the channel??? Like you say all agencies have their standards it's how peolpe interperate them. I just get annoyed being a 'New' diver becomming vintage before my time because no one now will look into the history of diving. They think a manifold is a new invention. Happy diving all.. ;D No offence meant.. Do I need to go and get a shovel to dig a deeper hole :-)
No one says you need to be a certified diver to dive, just get a book and read all about and do it. When I dive on charter boats I dive alone, hay! man I have solo diver card some were LOL. We North Americans have become brain washed into the certification trap, its nuts. Did you know 62% of all dive charter operators don't dive or don't have any certification other than a Dan 02 course. When I took all my teck diver programs I was a better, smarter and able to task load better the the instructor but hay I didn't give a dam, I just let him yap his way through the program until he signed me off and I was on my way. I just wonder who the fool was that certified him to instruct, it must of been the money. I've had plenty of arguments on dive boats were the dive master tried to team me up with some old fat guy and his fat wife who couldn't swim worth a dingo and I'm sup post to rune my dive so they can make it back to the boat, what about my $65 boat fee. The diving industry is a joke. The only normal people out there are the vintage collectors and users who seem not to be so caught up on all the hype I think. yada, yada, yada, I'll shut up now.
Ron, I have had some pretty heated arguments with dive boat operators when I wanted to dive alone. I am often promised I can but when they realize I actually mean to they refuse to allow it. I had one guy threaten to throw me off the boat and I told him that it was only 5 miles to shore so go ahead! (at the time I could have made it easy---now--nope--lol). Once out at the Flower Gardens the captain got so mad I thought he was going to have a coronary. I was out with a club but I was not a club member, just filling an empty slot. It turned out there was a fellow who was a club member but they were shunning him cuz he was kinda geeky. Well, so am I so I befriended him and we had the best dives of the whole bunch! He was a good diver. Shouldn't I get paid if I have to baby sit the "couple" mentioned? and yes, I agree, I see no need for a cert anymore because Padi has made it a joke. Everything I ever really learned for the good I learned on my own from a book but I am a geek. Nemrod
No, you are not digging anything; we tend to talk about things maybe too much. Just as in other endeavors, diving has fewer women than men. I don't know why, but perhaps it is the emphasis in the marketing of diving on the macho thing. But I think of the Ama in Japan, of other communities where women take to the water too, and do not understand the problems of getting women to enjoy the sport.
I think that if the "adventure" were taken out, and the "enjoyment" were put back in, without the emphasis on sharks and things that bite, maybe more women would be attracted to this wonderful sport of ours. Keep up the dialog; I appreciate your posts.
John C. Ratliff Diving since 1959, at age 13. Haven't stopped, and still enjoy getting wet.
Post by dogsbodydiving on Feb 26, 2005 9:48:44 GMT -8
Phew!!! Thanks John (SeaRat) when I scrolled down and saw my name at the top of your post I thought Oh My God!!! Here we go I've put my foot in it yet again Probably like most of us on here we find it really hard to put down into words what we are thinking without upsetting others. If you're face to face you can have a discussion, if on the other hand you're having to write it down, it can go to Rat S**t, you know what you want to say but it dont always come across how you mean it. I will keep my shovel close by. Just in case
Theres NO WAY im gonna tell you how I learned to dive, I covered that in another "s-board" and was nearly crucified! (much happier to be here) That said, I was a good swimmer long before becoming a diver- When I learned to dive my instructor TOOK my mask and would not let me wear it for several dives, and even then would (without warning) strip it from my head at his whim- was tought on a DA aquamaster and was unaware of single hosers for some time, and when introduced, was more than a little suspicious of such an odd, and cheap looking device-was tought to be comfortable in the water, or get out- and had several hundred dives in before I was made to get certified. It was odd to be tought by an instructor that had 170 "loged" dives (I REMEMBER!) Diving has been made too easy, and therefore is dangerous to the "masses" Not everything should be dumbed up to make it acessable to any (fill in the blank) that wants to jump in the water. And is reason # 1 that I solo dive most of the time. Self reliance and basic skills are left out of the quotent, not good!
I learned from an old dog that ,as far as I could ever tell, tought Moses to dive. He was tough as nails, and took care of me like a mother hen. After throwing me a copy of "the new science of skin and scuba diving" and telling me to read it, then read it 2 more times, he took me to the lake and gave me 15 min. worth of instruction. An 8' dive followed, and I was hooked forever. The greatest gift he gave me, was to be a self reliant diver. and I learned skills that dont seem to be considered as useful anymore. He was the best teacher I have ever had to this day! he died in 84 at the age of 77, and was NEVER certified by any agency.