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Post by nemrod on Apr 4, 2008 15:19:31 GMT -8
Hi Nem, I agree with all of that except for the Safe Second/octopus. I was using that and pony tanks more than 35 years ago. LOL, I believe you but 35 years ago is not really vintage. That would be 1973. The definition many use for vintage ERA is gear and techiques typical of that era, prior to 74. While some things, like the ScubaPro Stab Jacket, octopuses etc did show up in the mid 70s they are NOT of the techniques, methods and equipment characteristic of and used in the vintage ERA, 1974 and earleir. I was cave diving in 72 through about 1980. I used independent doubles and one did have a octopus. What we were doing was hardly vintage in method or equipment. Therefore octos etc are not really vintage acceptable for a diver trying to recreate vintage era dving. If you got a poodle jacket, octo, computer, and split fins with your double hose, that is fine and fun, we all do similar things but it is not vintage era diving. I never saw Mike Nelson with an octo--lol. Vintage is not just equipment, it is also the techniques and methods and practices, I don't see octos etc in the New Science of Skin and Scuba either until copyrights well into the 70s. My 1968 and 70 editions and earleir, I think they are are devoid of all that sort of thing. The New Sciece of Skin and Scuba is the vintage bible? JMO Nem
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Post by luis on Apr 5, 2008 17:04:42 GMT -8
Well, I haven’t been able to find pictures from the Eastern Divers Association, but I did see plenty of them using alternate seconds and pony bottles back in the 60’s. In the presentation I saw they said that EDA logged thousands of wreck dives from around 1965 to about 1974 (in the 70's they were already using mostlly single hose regulators). In many of the pictures (from the 60's) that I saw, they were using double hose regulators and pony bottles with alternate second stages. Therefore, I am not so sure anymore that an alternate second can not be considered vintage. Just because Mike Nelson didn’t use an alternate second …heck he supposedly only used Voit…those that mean that US Divers or Spirotechnique are not vintage either? Some of the pictures were amazing. This guys dove of the New Jersey coast year around. In one shot this guy was putting on two wet suits while standing on the deck of an iced covered boat. This is the only semi-related picture I found and I can’t find now where I got it from. Notice the alternate second on the diver on the left.
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Post by SeaRat on Apr 5, 2008 18:24:02 GMT -8
Luis, You are correct that wreck divers were routinely using pony bottles as safe seconds in the early 1970s. I was a speaker at NAUI's IQ6 which was held October 4-6, 1974 in San Diego, California. I have a copy of the NAUI Proceedings of the Sixth International Conference on Underwater Education[/B], which had a number of speakers. I tonight went through this publication, and found the following article and reference, "An Introduction to East Coast Wreck Diving," by Ken Heist, NAUI #1036: Here's Figure 2: In another paper in the same publication, "Standardization in Cave Diving" by John R. Kessler, John states the following about equipment: Looking at the above, it appears that the wreck divers on the East Coast were using pony bottles, while the cave divers were using octopus regulators. John
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Post by nemrod on Apr 5, 2008 19:15:25 GMT -8
Nonetheless a vintage era scuba course that requires the use of an octopus and pony bottle is vintage in name only. The rigs pictured from the 1974 symposium are barely under the window and are not of the methods and techniques and equipment common to the pre-1974 vintage era.
If your going to teach a vintage course with octos and BCs and pony bottles wouldn't that be what PadI teaches today. Well, I guess you could require them to be actually able to swim across the pool, I guess that would make it vintage then.
Nem
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Post by duckbill on Apr 5, 2008 20:51:15 GMT -8
I never saw Mike Nelson with an octo--lol. Oh yea? I remember in the fourth episode Mike was at Marineland of the Pacific (I believe).......and he had an octopus, plain as day!
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Post by SeaRat on Apr 6, 2008 10:38:54 GMT -8
Duckbill,
That octopus that Mike Nelson had in the fourth episode had eight legs, and suckers! It tried to get his face mask off. The specialties that required pony bottles, or octopus regs, were believed to be "out there" by a lot of us instructors. We felt that this was getting beyond sport diving too.
Nem,
I agree about the vintage course. Octopus were not required, but buddy breathing was. Swimming skills were required too. I haven't had time to look at course requirements yet, but may soon.
Now, I am going to outline some of the topics I think should be in a vintage specialty course:
--Water skills, use the skills outlined in the New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving.
--Evolution of the demand, open circuit regulator. This would include its invention by Cousteau, Gagnan and Goerges Comeinhes (Historical Diver[/B], Volume 13, Isue 3, Number 44, pgs 21-34). This would include discussions of the single and two stage designs, the evolution through to single hose regulators, and the difference between balanced two-stage and unbalanced two-stage designs for both types (double hose and single hose regulators). Understand the difference between a tilt valve and downstream valve on early single hose regulator. Evolution of hose/mouthpiece designs, length of hoses, diameter, flow, etc.
--Double hose regulator use: demand valve positioning, breathing using a double hose regulator, mouthpiece design with non-return valves and without, clearing a double hose regulator, use on single and double tanks (and possibly on triple tank systems of old).
--Reserve in Valve and Regulator design: understand the K-restrictor orifice, the J-valve and the K-valve, the Cousteau philosophy on reserves (1/3 or 1/4 air supply in reserve), advantages and disadvantages of J-reserve and Cousteau reserve in dirty waters, the origins of the SPG, use of SPG in the 1970s, evolution of single hose regulators away from a single hose, advantages and disadvantages of complex multi-hose systems, use of vintage diving systems in real-world diving, evolution of specialty diving in overhead environments with pony bottles and octopus systems, advantages for sports diving of the simple vintage scuba system.
--Evolution of buoyancy compensation, use with wet suits, lack of need with thin wet suits and dry suits of the vintage era.
--Use of the buddy system, buddy breathing, and the use of the buddy line.
--Evolution of scuba harness systems. Military harness with double D-rings for quick release, early back packs with quick releases, advantages and disadvantages of double tanks verses single tank scubas.
--Pool time with both types of double hose regulators. Overview of minimalist equipment usage: swim suit, scuba (tank and regulator) mask, snorkel and fins. Cover use of surface float as part of vintage diving. Doff and don exercises, station exercises, breathing with mask flooded, ascent exercises, entries and exits.
--Open water time with both types of double hose regulators (single stage and two stage regulators). Topics to cover prior to diving include surface floats, use of wet suits without a BC, proper weighting for depth, use of quick releases on weight belt & scuba. Use of depth gauge, compass (wrist for both) and dive tables. Computing air consumption rates using dive time, depth and psi used in standard scuba (convert psi to cf/minute usage). Test pressure prior to dive, and after dive using topside tank gauge.
John
More later--chore time.
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Post by nemrod on Apr 6, 2008 16:41:56 GMT -8
That sounds like a great start Sir SeaRat.
Maybe also some instruction on beach/shore diving using floats and paddle boards etc.
From your outline that would take eight to tweleve weeks, sounds about right to me, maybe about four hours each night, two lecture and two pool.
Also require aqt least a 1/4 mile unassisted swim with a time limit, 30 minute tread water, 10 minutes tread with five pound weight etc.
Diving without a mask, harrasement, blind buddy share etc.
Nem
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Post by nemrod on Apr 6, 2008 16:54:05 GMT -8
On second thought, that might be a bit to much, I don't think I could pass that . Nem
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Post by SeaRat on Apr 6, 2008 17:10:54 GMT -8
On second thought, that might be a bit to much, I don't think I could pass that . Nem Nem, I have two editions of The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving[/B], the 1957, 1959, and 1962 edition, with a drawn diver using a two hose with a Hope-Page mouthpiece, and the "New Revised Edition" (1968) with a photo of two divers, one with a USD Mistral and the other with a Dacor Dart single hose regulator on the cover. Both editions have this swim test: It then goes into a detailed physical exam criteria that a potential diver must meet with a signed statement from a physician. What is missing from the second edition is the writers. In the first edition, they are named on the back cover as the "writers of the New Science of Skin and SCUBA Diving. They are: Gilbert Abbe; William T. Burns, M.D.; E. R. Cross; Bernard E. Empleton; Loyal G. Goff; Wallace B. Hagerhorst; Dr. Edwarld H. Lanphier, U.S.N.; Richard Morris; Fred Schwankovsky; Capt. James Wren, U.S.A.; and JAmes E. Young. These people from the Council for National Co-operation in Aquatics were the ones who wrote this book. The New Science of Skin and SCUBA diving[/B] has an entire chapter titled "Skills of Skin and SCUBA diving," which is the basis for a course in diving. This probably corresponds well with the LA County course, and perhaps with the early NAUI course too (I'll check my old instruction manuals for that). John
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Post by duckbill on Apr 6, 2008 21:58:31 GMT -8
Underwater doff and don, Baby! Don't forget the Doff and Don twins! And, OVERHEAD TANK DONNING. I had no idea that was frowned upon these days until someone mentioned it. I don't care. I'll still do it like I always have. Works GREAT.
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Post by luis on Apr 7, 2008 6:00:40 GMT -8
The list of knowledge and skill requirements posted by John is very good. John did you mean to say an R valve in this line? “Reserve in Valve and Regulator design: understand the K-restrictor orifice”. My point about the use of alternate seconds has nothing to do with skills level. IMHO, the use of an alternate second or octopus is not a replacement for knowing how to “buddy breath”. Buddy breathing (sharing one air source) should be tough and practice by all divers whether they have an octopus or not. I proposed that buddy breathing be practice in another thread (at VDH) at all vintage gathering. How often do any of us practice buddy breathing with a double hose? Buddy breathing is not hard with a DH, but it will never be as easy as with a single hose. John That picture of the double tanks is very similar setup to what the EDA were using in the early 70’s. But, in the mid to late 60’s they were using double hose regulators with a similar pony bottle and alternate second stage.I believe I did see one picture with an alternate second attached to the hookah port, but that would have been very rare. The EDA divers probably did not practice the same buddy protocols that was and is practice by cave divers. My impression is that they were more self reliant, therefore the pony made more sense. I have even heard that some wreck divers consider a second diver producing bubbles inside a wreck as an added hazard due to the bubbles causing debris from above harming the visibility. In any case, my point is that there is unquestionable evidence that alternate seconds were used in the mid 60’s (not just the early 70’s). Was it rare? Yes. But, there is plenty of rare Scuba gear that is also vintage. There is a large list of very rare regulators and other pieces of equipment that no one will question that they are vintage. The picture that I showed earlier (repeated below) from 1965 is from the same time period as the Royal Master and the Royal Mistral. What makes that alternate second/ octopus any less vintage that those other rare regulators. It is possible that there were less successful dives in the 60’s with a USD Royal Mistral than with an alternate second stage. Those that mean that the Royal Mistral is not vintage? I am also not suggesting that we need to add an alternate second in a vintage reproduction setup, but just because someone doesn’t like it doesn’t make it less vintage…it was used at the time…even in small numbers…it was around. Again, equipment should never be a substitute for proper skills. An alternate second is not an excuse not to practice buddy breathing. Note: the bold lettering above is for Nemrod benefit…his vintage eye sight seems to be failing him. LOL…Just kidding.
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Post by nemrod on Apr 7, 2008 6:32:59 GMT -8
I think that the picture is interesting but most likely they are diving doubles and the single hose second is NOT an octapus second but is connected to a pony which is back mounted between the two manifolded doubles. I agree that would be a vintage tech configuration. However, I don't think connecting a second stage to the hookah port on a singles rig is a vintage configuration. I am sure somebody did it somewhere but it is just not a widely used method, technique and equipment of Vintage Era scuba. Doubles with a center mounted pony with a back up regulator (a single hose) was used in the east coast wreck diving community to this day. Nowadays it is common practice for east coasters to dive a large single (for non or limited penetration wreck dives) with a back mounted pony with a second regulator and the main tank configured with a standard octopus rig resulting in a total of three second stages--the evolution of what you see in your picture.
I just don't think octo rigs will ever be considered a legit vintage "method" as it was just not taught, practiced or documented in diving texts of the era. I am sure a few people experimented with it but I did not see or recall wholesale implementation of octo rigs as required equipment across the board until the early 80s. I do recall being out on boats in the Keys and on Santa Catalina and various other places circa 1980 and noticing maybe only 3 out of 10 having an octopus rig. I don't think I went to an octo rig for open water for my wife and I until about 1984 after an OOA incident--a long story that I have told before.
In the early 70s cave divers in central and north Florida were using indepenendent doubles or home made/home modified manifolds of various sorts so as to have dual regulators. The need for a long hose became quickly apparent after several widely reported "problems." The narrow tunnels and passageways and the need to stay up near the ceiling required a long hose for sharing. This evolved into todays DIR/Hog concept. None of that is really vintage, it was instead the beginning of TODAY and not the end of yesterday, if you follow. I am not sure that any cave diving configurations were really vintage because aside from a few individuals not many people really cave dived in the 50 and 60s. Alot died trying to dive in caves. A cave dive in 1970 was a 100 foot penetration and you were proud to be alive afterwards, now it is a 1,000 foot penetration as routine. Vintage Era is essentially Open Water, no serious cave or wreck penetration was routine in those years or widely participated in by sport divers enough to warrant vintage acceptable status. That is what I am thinking from a purist viewpoint.
Nem
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Post by SeaRat on Apr 7, 2008 11:39:54 GMT -8
The list of knowledge and skill requirements posted by John is very good. John did you mean to say an R valve in this line? “Reserve in Valve and Regulator design: understand the K-restrictor orifice”... John That picture of the double tanks is very similar setup to what the EDA were using in the early 70’s. But, in the mid to late 60’s they were using double hose regulators with a similar pony bottle and alternate second stage.I believe I did see one picture with an alternate second attached to the hookah port, but that would have been very rare. The EDA divers probably did not practice the same buddy protocols that was and is practice by cave divers. My impression is that they were more self reliant, therefore the pony made more sense. I have even heard that some wreck divers consider a second diver producing bubbles inside a wreck as an added hazard due to the bubbles causing debris from above harming the visibility. In any case, my point is that there is unquestionable evidence that alternate seconds were used in the mid 60’s (not just the early 70’s). Was it rare? Yes. But, there is plenty of rare Scuba gear that is also vintage. There is a large list of very rare regulators and other pieces of equipment that no one will question that they are vintage. The picture that I showed earlier (repeated below) from 1965 is from the same time period as the Royal Master and the Royal Mistral. What makes that alternate second/ octopus any less vintage that those other rare regulators. It is possible that there were less successful dives in the 60’s with a USD Royal Mistral than with an alternate second stage. Those that mean that the Royal Mistral is not vintage? I am also not suggesting that we need to add an alternate second in a vintage reproduction setup, but just because someone doesn’t like it doesn’t make it less vintage…it was used at the time…even in small numbers…it was around. Again, equipment should never be a substitute for proper skills. An alternate second is not an excuse not to practice buddy breathing. Note: the bold lettering above is for Nemrod benefit…his vintage eye sight seems to be failing him. LOL…Just kidding. Luis, No, I was talking about both the R-restrictor valve and some regulators which have (not had, but still have) a restrictor orifice. Many don't realize that the Healthways Scuba, Scuba Delux, and several of their single hose regs (Scuba Star, for one) have a restrictor orifice in them unless they were ordered for a J-valve. That means that they have the restrictor orifice as a default in these regulators, and many don't realize it. The photo you show is of a Healthways second stage, and there is a good possibility that the regulator that Antarctic diver is using on his pony bottle has a restrictor orifice on it. The restrictor orifice forces the diver toward the surface to get air when the tank pressure is under 300 psi over ambient. It should not be used under ice, in wrecks, or anywhere else where the diver may have to descend before heading for the surface. If (s)he does have an orifice, then the restrictor will be a real pain in those circumstances. By the way, that concerning that photo, it was in the link to historical Antarctic diving that I posted above. The text that went with that photo states: There are other very nice photos in that publication, but you need to open the link and look, as they are copyrighted. Concerning the LP connector for the hookah attachment on an Aquamaster, a lot of people made these adaptors that we are now buying. My friend, Bruce Higgins, made one in the Oregon State University shop in 1973. So they were available to some with some ingenuiety. I think that Luis and Nem are having an interesting discussion, but I would weigh in a bit differently. At that time, there was a distinction between sport diving and speciality diving. It was in the speciality diving community (e.i. wreck, ice, cave divers) that began using pony bottles and octopus regulator second stages. By the way, while an octopus is not a redundant air supply, it was a redundant secand stage. I had the opportunity to use it that way in two instances, both with my Trieste II regulator. The first was when I was diving in the 19790s in San Diego after IQ6. I used the Trieste II after it had been serviced, and the second stage was not performing well. I subsequently have changed three things, which I've documented heer, to change that. But during that dive, which was fairly deep, I could not get enough air through the regulator to satisfy my demands, and so switched to the MR12 second stage. As I said, I have subsequently modified the regulator to be a very good breathing regulator, but one of the mods was to put a baffle plate in the mouthpiece to direct air to my mouth that would then have shot down the hose and out the exhaust. Well, on one dive in Puget Sound, that plate became dislodged, and went up against the intake non-return, shutting off air flow. I simply switched to the MR12 second stage and finished the dive (we were swimming in toward shore at the time). So while the octopus is not a redundant air supply, it does provide redundancy for the regulator's second stage and hoses, and is therefore a valuable addition in many circumstances. John
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flafrog
Regular Diver
1962 Honor Graduate
Posts: 15
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Post by flafrog on Apr 7, 2008 16:07:03 GMT -8
ahoy Luis, ref reply#16 on April 2 2008 East Coast Divers photo was taken Spring 1968. the divers include L-R Mike DeCamp,George Hoffman,Doc Krumbec,John Dudas and john Hoodiman the occasion was the recovery of the ships bell by John Dudas and the engine telegraph by George Hoffman from the Ayuruoca(Oil Wreck) off the coast of New Jersey the photo was taken by Evie Dudas(first woman to dive the Andrea Doria and owner of Dudas Diving Duds in West Chester,PA, the Duds in the name refers to HD wet suits Evie at one time made, the DDD dive shop,which opened in 1967 recently had its 40 birthday)
ref; pony bottles, while on leave from the USN the 60s I purchased a pallet of Snorkair cylinders (10 cu ft)from l.H.Arpin Co. placed K valves in them and marketed them through a few dive shops in the North East until I moved to California in 1971.
Flafrog Panama City Beach,Florida
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YankDownUnder
Pro Diver
Broxton 'green label' Aqua Lung and 1954 USD Rene triple 44s.
Posts: 162
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Post by YankDownUnder on Apr 8, 2008 0:51:05 GMT -8
Another perspective........
Teaching people to dive with equipment which cannot be serviced by factory trained technicians and where factory repair parts are not available, might be an invitation to indefensible disaster. I have equipment which has been serviced by members of our 'vintage brotherhood' and I am willing to use that equipment anywhere. However, that is my choice. When you sell instruction, much more is expected of you and liability release forms apply to the signer, not to his survivors. They are your real worry.
So, my suggestion is that a different approach be taken. I would suggest a diving history course be the goal, where the history of diving is preserved for the future. It could include demonstrations, but not actual diving. Here in Australia, where commercial single hose regulator production actually predates US double hose production, no one has any idea as to their heritage. PADI does not seem to teach any diving history and there is definetly a place for such a course. I would guess no one in PADI goes back that far and there won't be much money in it. That explains a lot when it comes to PADI. I would also guess that no one at Aqua Lung has ever met Cousteau either, however, I could be wrong.
I have read a great deal about diving history and lived through some of it. There has been a lot of misinformation published as 'gospel'. The one founder of a diving company, wrote that he invented the single hose regulator in 1955. If his date is correct, he is number three, not number one. He follows Ted Eldred's Porpoise (1952) and Jim Ager's SeaBee (1954). Jim Ager is still making regulators at 80 years of age. We also know that Commeines predated Cousteau and that Cousteau did not invent anything. Gagnan made the double hose regulator for Cousteau, from a valve that was intended to meter cooking gas to power cars. Cousteau was a great promoter and a great diver, he just was not a gas engineer. This is not to demean the contributions these men made, it just needs to be placed in perspective and be accurate.
I began diving in Australia in 1960, at 16 years of age. I only snorkeled and spear fished before that. The first single hose SCUBA class began here in Melbourne, in 1953, long before my time. When I began teaching in 1964, we took over from that school. Our instructors predated NAUI, PADI and the Australian FAUI. We taught at the YMCA, before the YMCA had a course to teach here. We did not have an instructors' course to attend, but we had our experience to draw upon. Several of the instructors actually manufactured SCUBA for their club, the Black Rock Underwater Diving Group, founded in 1955. My contribution was nil.
Preserving the history and passing it on to the many new divers, and even those experienced divers who have been with us for years, would be of great value. Sticking a double hose mouth piece in your face is not much of an accomplishment to an experienced diver, but a history course would serve to preserve what we already know.
Okay, I'll get off my soap box now and let someone else have a go. Whatever you decide to do, I wish you well.
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