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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 15:02:47 GMT -8
I and John have been having a interesting discussion with a Frenchman concerning my mouthpiece design on Facebook "Sea Wolf Regulator Campaign and Development".....namely the DSV (Dive Surface Valve) feature.
This valve, unlike the DSV's on Rebreathers, is to serve nothing more that stopping the free flow of a DHR when on the surface.
The Frenchman, named Christian, is pretty astute it seems but has a pretty negative opinion of the DSV for use on a double hose reg. preferring to use (and teach) the old method of just sticking ones arm thru the hoses to hold the mouthpiece below the level of the can on the divers back.
We, John and I, of course are looking at the modern taught divers who would be aggravated with the free flow effects while on the surface for any reason. And might not be inclined toward such contortions required by the old tried and true methods.
Christian is a vintage diver, and teaches (it appears) vintage techniques along with tried and true (and modern) diving procedures.
Another of his grievances is a diver on the surface with his regulator out of his mouth is a no no ......which I know personally is frowned upon by instructors and boat captains..(I personally have replied "get out of my life" in similar situations)..I believe his contention is this should not be encouraged by a Double Hose DSV. However, people still pull the reg free (single or double) from their lips to either thinking they can breath better or mostly just to chat with their buddies.......
Christian raises some valid points but he is just one voice. So what are y'alls opinions concerning the DSV on a double hose mouthpiece? I can build this mouthpiece a lot cheaper without the DSV, but have read here and on Scubaboard about divers liking the idea of having one. Is it a necessity?
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Post by scubadiverbob on Apr 7, 2015 15:31:51 GMT -8
Personally, I like the idea; as to conserve air, I use a snorkel most of the time on the surface. Sounds like the person your talking to doesn't believe in using snorkels and maybe only teaches you should use a harness. Not to offend anyone in the vintage community; but, when I got my hands on a backpack, well that's the last time I used a harness and never went back. Didn't like the tank (I used a steel 72) wobbling around on my back. So, it depends on how "vintage' your friend is on insisting students put their hoses under their arms ....
Many people dive differently. As far as being vintage, ask your friend if he still uses a Calypso camera; that's really old school .... (if he does and want's to give it away, I'll send you my address !!!) It took me forever to go digital and now that I've found a source for Kodak film (Daves Camera, Paradise, CA) I'm going to be using my never fail, never flood, Nikonos cameras again! But, I know many will still want to use digital (even though it's not vintage) ..... well, to each his/hers own, right?
You'll never find two divers who dive exactly the same all the time .... I can almost guarantee that! Might want to make a few w/o the valve .... (probably why there are so many dive manufacturing companies)
Robert
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Post by scubadiverbob on Apr 7, 2015 23:08:21 GMT -8
"the old method of just sticking ones arm thru the hoses to hold the mouthpiece below the level of the can on the divers back" and "Another of his grievances is a diver on the surface with his regulator out of his mouth is a no no" .... humm ....
Please have your friend post a picture of someone putting the hose under their arm and keeping the regulator mouthpiece in their mouth .... interesting concept. Ok, it's late and I'm tired. Maybe I'm just not understanding something. I know that couldn't be done with a Dacor; 'cause, the hoses were sorta small in length.
Like some people don't like the way I dive, and have told me so. Like wearing my 3 mil. shorty in 50 to 60 degree water and if the waters over 60 degrees I just wear a t-shirt with swimming trunks (Did that at Lake Tahoe and went to 60 feet; people were looking at me strange. I thought it was great; I didn't have to wear a weight belt, my steel 72 sunk me. Some thought you always have to wear weights to dive .... maybe I'm crazy or something .... who knows .... "To each his own"
I'm sure if your friend doesn't like the valves; the ones he orders put a plug in them, with a o-ring (where the knob is for the valve, and people can have an option of later on adding the valve.
Robert
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Post by sitkadiver on Apr 8, 2015 2:20:59 GMT -8
I won't itemize my response to Christian's concerns, but will instead respond in general terms:
First of all, a DSV is way over due for those of us who dive a DH reg on a regular basis. I am NOT a vintage diver. I keep one fin in the modern world by wearing a drysuit, clipping on a digital camera, using a techy style mask and (LORD HELP ME!!... ) using SPLIT FINS!
I just like to dive. And most often, I like to dive with a DH reg. Sometimes, my work or the Dive Team require that I use a FFM. Sometimes, I use a SH hose reg to see how it breathes after a rebuild... But, most dives these days will involve me diving a DH reg.
Christian's points, though not invalid, are arbitrary. For every DH diving technique you mention, I can think of at least one exception that would make it impractical, and some exceptions that would be unsafe.
I will buy a DSV when they hit the market. In fact, I will likely buy several, since I own multiple DH regs.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 7:15:00 GMT -8
Its nice to see points of view on this side of the planet are in line with my thoughts. I suspect there are many more from the myriad collection of DH divers across the spectrum, both for or against.
At any rate, anyone.....myself, the fellow on the Florida coast, or anyone around the world who attempts to go into production with one of these things is going to lay out a bunch of money for tooling and parts.
I've examined and disassembled ball check valves, tumblers, butterfly and rotating valve mechanisms and trying to come up with a simple system to transfer into the Mk5 mouthpiece. I believe I succeeded however I had to go back to the drawing board to redesign for manufacturing to lower the costs of tried and true injection molds. (Production 3D runs $264.00 per unit, so much for advanced technology)
I understand Luis Heros is also working on 3 different styles of mouthpieces, one of which is a DSV. He or VDH will run (if they haven't already)into the same financial jungle. Having molds made for the main can body is a heck of a lot cheaper than for a DSV.
What I am trying to say here is I am up to taking the risks to build this new DHR complete with the DSV mouthpiece, but I want to sell this thing world wide to all divers interested......not just to DH vintage divers. VDH has that pretty sewn up.
Luis even acknowledges his Kraken is a modern vintage regulator. Which is ok. We, the diving public need a new DHR regulator.
My Sea Wolf however, is not just a upscale vintage regulator. It has a few things that bring it into the 21st century, surpassing I believe any efforts prior. John has read my theory on these advancements and you can probably get him to elaborate a bit (he has an better command of the English language and can say stuff without revealing information)......HOWEVER I am not yet ready to reveal these secrets.
But I don't want to waste my time (I've been putting off the writing of my second novel, working on this project)if you guys don't think there is a market.......not vintage market.......I'm talking busting a big damn hole in the diving community and filling it by bringing back the DHR as a viable piece of equipment. (perhaps forcing, via demand on shops for these, PADI, SSI etc upgrading their training classes.)
The DSV mouthpiece is an integral part of the Sea Wolf, but can also be used retrofitted on most DHR's with the correct hoses (cup size and thickness of the material)so the need for this is important to me to know. (tks sitkadiver)
I've got some outstanding magazine advertising lined up, testimonies (a well known treasure hunter/salvage expert), several blogs, etc. I am not going into this limp wristed if I go at all.
My next funding campaign is a All or Nothing campaign. If the campaign falls short of the funds goal, no one looses but the project. I've been able to find a really good priced mold maker, who does excellent work, for the DSV mouthpiece. Perhaps the cans as well. All the other bits and pieces suppliers to make these mouthpieces have been identified and put on notice. But if this NEW campaign fails to secure the funds needed then it is over and any donations to this campaign are returned.
I need you folks to support me on this.........when I launch the campaign, I will notify y'all and please, if you have contacts, Facebook friends, twitter etc.......cut and paste or share or send via email.
I want to thank a young diver you guys don't know, who has helped me greatly with the CAD and 3D prototype printing. Jarrod Speegle......new to diving.(about two years)....never has used a DHR....he is excited about this project, probably more than me.
Mossback
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Post by SeaRat on Apr 8, 2015 7:57:03 GMT -8
Here was my reply to Christian about his concern that the Sea Wolf mouthpiece was sticking out too far, and that the La Spiro Aquastop mouthpiece was the best mouthpiece available:
There was more discussion available on the Sea Wolf Facebook page. Christian is very negative about the DSV aspect of the mouthpiece, but supportive of the new regulator itself. In his experience the DSV aspect is an unnecessary complication to the mouthpiece. Our feeling is that the DSV would attract others to double hose diving, such as recreational divers who go to resorts where they have to be on the surface for a while awaiting boat pickup. Christian expressed concern about a failure of the DSV that could cause the diver a problem; my feeling is that a robust design can overcome this potential problem, and that in product safety there is a technique called Failure Modes and Effects Analysis that can identify any potential problems and negate them.
John
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Post by surflung on Apr 8, 2015 9:36:47 GMT -8
Hi Michael, - I read all of the Frenchman's comments and have to say he makes a lot of valid points. Free flowing on the surface is inconvenient but hasn't been a big problem for me... And I only recently learned that little trick of slipping the mouthpiece under your arm... Haven't tried it yet. I see his points on simplicity. Simplicity of equipment as well as technique is one of the things I enjoy about vintage diving. But I dive modern double hoses too. - As one of your first crowd funding contributors, I was (at first) confused and a little disappointed to see the regulator project get side-tracked into this DSV project. But then it seemed like the DSV might be a quicker revenue generator by being universally compatible with vintage DHRs, Rebreathers, AND the new MK5 Regulator. It didn't seem like the Frenchman cared a lick for that aspect of it. - On the other hand, I enjoy both Vintage AND modernized DHRs. The modernized ones I like to trick out to the maximum... And I would definitely buy at least one DSV and probably more if I liked it.
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Post by SeaRat on Apr 8, 2015 12:08:21 GMT -8
Surflung, The hose-under-the-arm trick Christian talked about works only with longer hoses. If you'll look at my current avitar, you'll see that I'm using a standard length hose and it is right under my chin. There is no way I could get that hose wrapped under my arm. But my Mossback Mk 3 regulator has superflex hoses on it, and those could be routed under an arm. But if you try this with standard-length hoses (USD, Voit, etc.) you'll find that you'll distort and possible tear the hoses. Christian is in France, and has been using the La Spiro Mistral equipped with longer hoses, and that works for him. Here I was using my DX Overpressure Breathing regulator (predecessor to the Mistral) equipped with a metal mouthpiece (no non-returns) and instead of the original, very short hoses, Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA) hoses from a safety supply store. With this setup, I could use the under-the-arm technique of handling free flows. Instead of changing out hoses, the DSV would be a good alternative. John
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Post by SeaRat on Apr 8, 2015 21:48:09 GMT -8
Jaybird made a comment earlier that was very helpful, talking about the use of the "Pre-dive/Dive" switch on the Scubapro Pilot and A.I.R. I regulators as an example where a DSV was used to advantage, and was very successful in preventing free flow of the regulator. I have used those for many years, as I bought my A.I.R. I regulator in the 1980s for use in swift river waters. John
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Post by duckbill on Apr 12, 2015 20:36:07 GMT -8
"the old method of just sticking ones arm thru the hoses to hold the mouthpiece below the level of the can on the divers back" and "Another of his grievances is a diver on the surface with his regulator out of his mouth is a no no" .... humm .... Please have your friend post a picture of someone putting the hose under their arm and keeping the regulator mouthpiece in their mouth .... interesting concept. ^^^^^^THIS!^^^^^^LOL!!!!The guy is contradicting himself! Personally, I would never want to pull my hose hard enough to get my arm through it. Nothing like a torn hose or one pulled loose to end a dive! As for keeping the mouthpiece in your mouth, that's fine and dandy, but not always smart. There have been many times that I had a long surface swim to make back to shore, and I wanted to be sure I had plenty of air remaining for negotiating through unplanned difficulties during a heavy surf entry. Tucking the mouthpiece under my chest and using a snorkel has always been my routine for surface swims.
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Post by SeaRat on Apr 13, 2015 18:21:37 GMT -8
Here is my latest comment on Facebook to Christian Jeanround:
Christian seems to be rather unreasonable on this topic.
John
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 7:11:45 GMT -8
Christian continues to dispel the positives using a DSV. But he did reveal his bias in one way.......doffing and donning and buddy breathing with a DH.........perhaps I am mistaken and the current diving instructors continue to teach doffing and donning, however, I do not remember my son going thru this as the BC jacket or back mounted tended to negate this technique.......vintage, of course......but modern diving? Someone educate me if I am wrong.......any way I tried to explain to him one more time the Sea Wolf is not aimed at JUST VINTAGE DIVERS.....but he apparently is not listening.
The Sea Wolf DSV is a simple rotating tube within the main body. Using o rings and self sealing surfaces the inner tube is rotated via a simple lever that protrudes on the outside. DOWN (dive) and UP (surface)........it does not have any further features that one might find on a Rebreather DSV......however, with the increased out flow of air because of the new design feature, one could theoretically empty ones tank quickly on the surface, thus the reason for this simple DSV.
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Post by cnotthoff on Apr 14, 2015 9:06:33 GMT -8
doffing and donning and buddy breathing with a DH.........perhaps I am mistaken and the current diving instructors continue to teach doffing and donning, however, I do not remember my son going thru this as the BC jacket or back mounted tended to negate this technique.......vintage, of course......but modern diving? Someone educate me if I am wrong....... Before I respond to Michael's question about current training, I'd like to comment on the DSV. I explain to customers and students that the reason for the dive/predive switch is that second stages molded from plastic can be formed to use the flow of air through the regulator (venturi effect) to increase performance. This makes them prone to free flow when the regulator is not in the diver's mouth. It seems the DSV offers this same feature to a high performance DHR. Very cool ! I still have students doff and don scuba unit in the pool. I emphasize that this is an exercise to become more familiar with their equipment. I do not have them swim to the surface after removing the unit then dive back down to replace it. I don't have them perform this skill in open water. Part of this is due to the shift in training that has occurred during my teaching career. When I started teaching in the 70's, in-water training usually consisted of a lot of pool time with a couple of check-out dives. We found that divers were more comfortable and more likely to continue in diving if entry-level training included more open water experience. I assume even vintage diving enthusiasts no longer rely on a blow-and-go ascent where the scuba unit is left on the bottom to deal with an out-of-air situation. Good Dives, Charlie
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Post by SeaRat on Apr 14, 2015 20:16:59 GMT -8
Dennis Graver, my Course Director for my NAUI ITC in 1972, had this handout from about that era about buddy breathing: John
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Post by cnotthoff on Apr 15, 2015 9:41:20 GMT -8
I staffed an ITC run by Dennis in the late 90's. That guy knows his stuff.
The points he makes are why I know longer train divers to buddy-breath. Diving without a back-up air supply appropriate for the dive is like driving around with no spare. Thanks to Jimmy Buffet for that last line.
Good dives,
Charlie
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