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Post by waldenwalrus on Feb 12, 2018 4:54:41 GMT -8
Hi All
I was thinking about leaving the tanks on my kayak this spring and diving with a Hookah setup. I have a couple of questions maybe you can chime in on. Since there is no ambient pressure change on the first stage do you set it higher than 135 or just leave it? I was thinking of using one of my DA Aquamasters for the rig or maybe just a regular old second stage. If I use the Aquamaster is the cap and o-ring enough to work against 140 PSI or should I take an old valve and silver solder the opening?
I was planning on a 19 CF pony on an old finseal BC since I don't have a SPG, and possibly using regular Home Depot air hose with quick disconnect fittings rather than hookah hose. Planned depth is about 50 feet. Anybody see a problem with this. How much extra hose should I have for a 50 foot depth.
The activity would be scalloping, I was wondering if off gassing from the cheap generic air hose would be an issue at depth or would flushing it for about and hour simple green or something like that.
Your comments are appreciated.
John
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Post by cnotthoff on Feb 12, 2018 9:27:34 GMT -8
You'll need an air hose made for breathing air. Home Depot hose will yield stuff you don't want to breath. Do you have a second stage with a tilt valve? They work great as the perceived intermediate pressure changes with depth. Always have a non-return valve between your second stage and the supply hose. A failure at the surface can cause a dangerous pressure imbalance without that check valve. Hardware store QD will rust. Pony bottle as a bailout is a good idea. How will you switch gas supply? Keene Engineering has everything you need for a safe hookah setup. keeneeng.comGood Dives, Charlie |
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Post by SeaRat on Feb 12, 2018 9:46:20 GMT -8
John, Charlie's advise is very good. If you want to use an Aquamaster, you may want a hookah harness for the Aquamaster. They work well. You also have the option of putting it onto a pony bottle, with the valve off, and turning it on only in an emergency. I don't think the change in pressure with depth will matter much, as the intermediate pressure is still quite a bit above the pressure at depth. (14.7 psig/atm x 2 atm= 29.4 psig) You will need more than the depth for the hose. I would go with a 45 degree angle. The equation is the sine of the angle is equal to the depth (b) divided by the length of the line you need (hypothenuse). Therefore, the length of hose you need is the depth divided by the sine of the angle (45 degrees). My rcalrculator says that length needed is 58.8 feet, or sixty feet of length. Because of the problems of pulling, etc. I would use about 75 feet. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theoremJohn |
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Post by waldenwalrus on Feb 12, 2018 10:52:04 GMT -8
Good points. I was planning a redundant pony with its own regulator, and a neckless to keep it where I know it will be. I intend to have it on all the time. When the fertilizer hits the fan I don't want to be messing around with valves and changeovers. The non-return makes a lot of sense and a place like Keene engineering makes even more sense. I have any one of 10 different second stages to use mostly Sherwood's Oasis, Blizzard and an SR2, not sure what which ones if any would have the tilt valves.
I should be able to land test the setup with the home depot hoses, They are brand new I may be able to flush them out with simple green before use to get out any oils and such out of them. At 1 ATA that shouldn't kill me. at 3 ATA could be different, point well taken.
75 feet seems about right when I kayak dive I have about that much rope out. I tow it along as my dive float. I have a few months to work it out and a shallow fresh water project that I could test it with.
The Walrus
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Post by herman on Feb 12, 2018 12:29:52 GMT -8
Several things come to mind, the first being - Why?
If you have a compressor topside then I understand but if you are using a tank and first stage, what are you really gaining, esp since you will have to take everything to the site you would if you were using scuba, plus a bunch of (hookah) hose and a pony bailout rig. If anything your work is going to increase because you are dragging the hose and whatever is floating the tank (kayak??).
That said, if you still want to do it, then all you really need besides the hose and a mounting harness (you have to have some way of attaching the hose to your body, remember, you will be towing the hose and surface stuff)is an adjustable second stage. I would also recommend a balanced first stage as well. If you want to stay vintage, a SP-109 is a perfect choice. By using an adjustable second, you can compensate for the increasing ambient pressure by reducing the pressure on the reg spring. You may have to adjust the second stage a little light at the surface (making you keep the adjustment in more than normal) to get as much adjustment as you like but frankly at 50 ft you are not going to tell much of a difference.
As for using a DA, you still need all the hose plus a mounting harness and some way to block off the HP stage. I would be leary of a dust cap but if you want to dedicate a DA to the job, VDH sells reproduction Hookah plug for the DA. You remove the entire first stage and replace it with the plug.
Technically, it's easy to do but like I said in the beginning, I don't see what you are gaining and at the same time I see a lot of extra stuff to deal with. If it were me, I would go with a simple old school back plate, a 72, a good reg and leave the hookah stuff at home.
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Post by waldenwalrus on Feb 13, 2018 4:31:28 GMT -8
I don't care so much about vintage, I have several DA's and other first stages, I know the DA was set up for that purpose. I drag the kayak as it is now with a spare tank and use it as a dive float it isn't that big of a deal to pull if you pull from the bow handle. Trying to get the tank back and BC back on the boat and then tied off is a bit of work.
Scalloping in New England is about hitting a good bed. You are always in a current and you may have to do a fair amount of swimming to find that magic spot or you may never find the bed and it becomes an easter egg hunt. A 72 isn't that much air and you find yourself running out when you just get on them. (that true now matter how big the tank)
I have 2 130CF tanks rigging one or both of them gives you some good exploring time and collecting time but heaving them back up on the boat is almost impossible for me. I have a three person kayak and the freeboard is a bit high, but it disappears quickly when you start loading up with scallops.
Hookah is a new and different experience it might be fun and it may work out better. I won't know until I try.
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Post by vance on Feb 13, 2018 11:25:30 GMT -8
Hookah is a new and different experience it might be fun and it may work out better. I won't know until I try. I'm with you! Trying new things (even if the new things are actually old things...) is the way to keep life interesting! |
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Post by nikeajax on Feb 13, 2018 14:45:00 GMT -8
Hookah is a new and different experience it might be fun and it may work out better. I won't know until I try. I'm with you! Trying new things (even if the new things are actually old things...) is the way to keep life interesting!  To paraphrase Edmund Hilary...
Because you can!  Jaybird |
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Post by SeaRat on Feb 13, 2018 15:03:16 GMT -8
WaldenWalrus, A couple of comments about hookah. --I have never tried it, and so cannot relate directly. But you probably should not use hose from Home Depot or another non-diving place, as these hoses are not meant for life support systems. The hoses you want are from the recommended supplier above, or from some other life support system. When I was in my last job, we had a supplied air system for our HazMat team. I discovered the unused system in the upper floor of the company's production facility, cleaned it up and trained on it. It became a very good system for our team. --Our system had a quick disconnect at the uses, where the HazMat team member could immediately disconnect the system and escape on a "bailout bottle." This should be in your thoughts too for your system, as the potential for catching a hose underwater is high. --Please do not try "cleaning a hose inside using Simple Green. The caution statement on the bottle states that it contains "polyethyleneglycol derivatives," but doesn't give the actual chemicals. You will be breathing a low concentration of whatever you use on the inside of the hose, as you will never get it all out once it is introduced. Look on E-Bay for hose long breathing hoses, as you may be able to pick some up in that manner which are made for breathing systems. www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xsupplied+air+hoses.TRS0&_nkw=supplied+air+hoses&_sacat=0John |
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Post by waldenwalrus on Feb 14, 2018 10:36:37 GMT -8
I appreciate all the comments and discussion and I have decided I will not go with Home Depot hoses, Harbor Freight has them much cheaper.  But seriously I decided to get a proper hose. as it was brought up to me on the VDH forum you can't afford a kink, hookah hoses are designed not to kink. As to simple green, most of us use simple green to clean our double hose rubber parts with, hoses and diaphragms so that shouldn't me an issue. Having a bail out bottle to me, means a totally redundant system Regulator and the second stage on a neckless so I know where it is. I won't be playing with a quick disconnect at 50 feet. That is my life support system per se the Hookah is my working air. I won't necessarily know if I run out so I will have to use the Pony as my assent air. I have a 17CF that should work for that. I have a 6 CF too but that's cutting it close. I won't have a way to monitor my HP supply and if you think the Hookah hose is expensive try to get a price on 75' of stainless steel rod to pull down the j valve when I run out of air, again humor not serious I am going to try to test this on a pool night while the class is doing there swim tests, or maybe play the whole night if we only have a few students. that way I can test a few first stages balanced and unbalanced. the advantage to an unbalanced is that I should feel the breathing resistance go up as the tank empties, that may be a good thing provided It gives me enough air to work with while diving. Thanks again for the input and keep it coming. We still have a foot of ice up here so I won't be going anytime soon. The Walrus |
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Post by nikeajax on Feb 14, 2018 12:18:24 GMT -8
If ya ain't gotta shoulder 'em, why not use twin 72's?
Also, if you use a tilt-valve like Charlie suggests, don't set your IP any higher than 110-psig, but 95 is better. Tilt-valves are held closed by a very weak spring, and the up-stream high-pressure pushes up against the seat helping to keep it closed.
Just some more fodder for your adventure to come!
JB
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Post by SeaRat on Feb 14, 2018 12:22:47 GMT -8
WaldenWalrus, the interstage pressure will go down in you have an unbalanced piston regulator (Healthways Scuba Star). But if you us an unbalanced diaphragm regulator (early Conshelf), the interstage pressure will go up rather than down.
John
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Post by waldenwalrus on Feb 16, 2018 5:11:21 GMT -8
I am a certified Sherwood tech and I have a few more modern Sherwood balanced first stages, but setting IP Is difficult on that you have disassemble it and stack or remove shims. Newer isn't necessarily better. I think in most cases it just over complicates things.
I have to check my box of old stuff and see what I have for easily adjustable balanced first stages. You have to appreciate the simplicity of the older regs. I don't know that adding lots more parts makes things better. I guess that's why we all like the vintage stuff.
The Walrus
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But seriously I decided to get a proper hose. as it was brought up to me on the VDH forum you can't afford a kink, hookah hoses are designed not to kink.