“Vintage” values, knowledge and skills for new divers?

[jviss]

Oct 26, 2018 9:59:00 GMT -8 cnotthoff said:

Sharing the same regulator (buddy-breathing) is not an option. I spend more time on getting comfortable with sharing air with an octopus or whatever setup they have.

I didn't make these changes lightly. I understand that having the composure underwater to buddy-breath is a good thing for divers. I found that the greater difficulty of buddy-breathing made a greater impression on students causing them to hand off their primary when surprised by a diver in need of air. I don't think I've consulted a dive table during anything but training in 20 years.

I'm interested in thoughts from those of us who learned to dive before computers and octopuses.

Good Dives,
Charlie

I got interested in SCUBA in the late 60's, and was PADI-certified in 1975. The training I took for the PADI cert. was unusual, I think, because it was a semester-long course, one classroom and one pool session per week. The instructor was a former Navy diver and current NYC Police diver.

This was just after the dawn of the BCD, and the trend, as I saw it, of dive shops in concert with certifying agencies loading people up with equipment and technique developed to support the new equipment.

I was fortunate to learn first what we now call vintage diving - learning to establish neutral buoyancy - actually, slightly positive at the surface - in a wetsuit, mask, fins, snorkel and weight belt. The tank was a 71.2 steel, slightly negative full, slightly positive empty. This was a brilliant system. One was buoyancy-stable with or without the tank backpack. The horse collar BC was an evolution from the "rescue vest" or snorkel vest, and that was O.K., but usually ended up requiring more lead for failing to completely evacuate it. That's the thing, the big thing, in my opinion: the vintage way one was stable with the absolute minimum of weight, with or without one's SCUBA set. You swam down and soon your wetsuit compressed maximally and you were neutrally buoyant, and could swim around easily, horizontally. You swam up, and near the surface your suit expanded and you became slightly positively buoyant. With the "new" system you wore extra weight because you could never completely empty your BC (later called BCD); it was much worse with a jacket BCD attached to the backpack, much more air, and hence more lead. The lead was around your waist, the air higher up, so everyone swam more vertically, lass efficiently, using more energy and air. If you had to doff your SCUBA, you lost your buoyancy and sank, unless you dropped your weight belt, at which point you were super buoyant - unsafely so! No buoyancy stability. When I "vintage dive" from my sailboat, rather than hoisting my self and my tank (or tanks) up the ladder, I tie the rig to a line dangling in the water and doff it. I'm still buoyancy stable, in my wetsuit and weight belt. I can hoist the rig up once I'm comfortably on board, or leave it if I'm going in again and there's sufficient air remaining for whatever I might be doing.

Buddy breathing. Why is this not an option? The composure one gains from learning and practicing buddy breathing is important. My weird PADI course consisted of many exercises that are shunned now. We learned buddy breathing, did doff and don drills, experienced harassment drills - instructor ripping off your mask or turning off your air. We trained our brains to stay cool and deal with issues rather than today where folks are trained to use their equipment, rely on it, too heavily, in my view. We did underwater swimming drills where 6 tanks were placed in an Olympic pool, four corners and 1/2 way along the long sides; tanks had regulators mounted and valves off. Drop down to the first, air on, clear, breathe a few breaths, air off, swim underwater to the next. How many circuits can you complete? With buddy breathing you were taught, and practiced, how to maintain proximity, holding each others' harness strap, facing each other, you shared and ascended. We were also taught and practiced free ascents. I'm pretty sure a lot of these things are no longer taught in basic courses.

The important thing about practicing buddy breathing and these other things is training one's brain for composure, coolness in the face of adversity.

I feel the same way about computers. Plan your dive and dive your plan! Use the tables to determine bottom time, repetitive dives, and so on. I have a sophisticated, multiple-station GPS chart plotter on my boat, but I still carry paper charts and review charts before a cruise.

(By the way, handing off your primary is de rigueur in DIR diving.)

[snark3]

JV- I was talking with a PADI instructor recently who was certified in 1973. He was telling me that the open water certification we got back then (you and I were both certified in '75) was more in depth training than the current advanced classes are.

[jviss]

Oct 27, 2018 11:20:55 GMT -8 snark3 said:

JV- I was talking with a PADI instructor recently who was certified in 1973. He was telling me that the open water certification we got back then (you and I were both certified in '75) was more in depth training than the current advanced classes are.

Indeed, they were!

[cnotthoff]

(By the way, handing off your primary is de rigueur in DIR diving.)

I'm familiar with that technique. It includes the donor handing off the primary with a longer hose, then breathing off a secondary, usually from a secondary gas source (pony bottle). The longer hose allows both divers to pass through tight spaces like caves or holes in ice. None of these DIR divers would consider buddy breathing an option for dealing with an out-of-gas station.

The divers in the demonstration I referred to would hand off primary then wait to get it back. Having the composure is important, but it can be developed with other training.

Good Dives,
Charlie

[jviss]

I knew that about DIR diving, Charlie, but thanks. I'm not so sure about the cave or ice rationalization, but the long hose simplifies air sharing.

What other training do you use to develop composure?

[cnotthoff]

Composure comes from more time practicing out-of-air situations and handling equipment.. We clear masks while sharing air, manage buoyancy while sharing air, ascend while sharing air and controlling buoyancy.

Good Dives,
Charlie

[crabbyjim]

Diving was more physically demanding when I was certified in 1970.  I say this because I am preparing for a vintage dive this Saturday.  I have been practicing donning my equipment, UDS horsecollar, Conshelf IV regulator that I recently rebuilt, steel 72 with EZ Cam packpack.  After I refamiliarized myself with the straps, hoses and weightbelt I started practicing in a dark room.  The ability to find and adjust the pieces and parts in the dark is coming back to me.  I find it hard to believe that I actually performed the doff and don exercise in the cold, often dark waters of Monterey Bay in the 1970’s and taught people how to do it in the 1980’s. 

The tanks are getting heavier too.  I’ll let you know how things go post dive.

[crabbyjim]

Dove the Breakwater in Monterey yesterday in "modified vintage" style.  Steel 72 from 1972, DAAM with backplate and bubble from VDH.  Didn't have it low enough on my back so breathing head down was noticeably harder than head's up.  Other than the cramps in both calves, a very enjoyable dive.  As I was loading my gear into the truck, a guy came by and said that he was surprised that parts were available for "old gear like that".  We talked for a bit and I suggested this forum and VDH. 

The people I dove with were somewhat put off by the double hose.  "Where is your safe second?"  Didn't they teach you buddy breathing and free ascent, I asked innocently?  While safe seconds are a good idea, too many modern divers think that they are a panacea and a substitute for the skills we were routinely taught 40-50 years ago.  While visibility was 20 feet or so yesterday, a buddy who is 10 feet distant and swimming away from you may not be an option if you experience an equipment malfunction.  I routinely practice free ascents but the thought of taking the regulator out of the mouth, throwing your head back and exhaling on the way to the surface causes expressions of shock and horror in some people.

Anyway, I had a good time yesterday even though my calves are still sore.

[scubalawyer]

Jan 20, 2019 8:22:42 GMT -8 crabbyjim said:

The people I dove with were somewhat put off by the double hose.  "Where is your safe second?"  Didn't they teach you buddy breathing and free ascent, I asked innocently?

That's my usual response too. The other question I get asked alot is "What is your bailout contingency plan in the event of catastrophic gas loss..." My response? "Uh, swim up?"

M

[nikeajax]

Jan 20, 2019 8:32:07 GMT -8 scubalawyer said:

[" My response? "Uh, swim up?"

M

SNORT!

Let this be a lesson: never take things for granite, because most rocks don't float!*

JB

*Pumice, a volcanic-rock will actually float, due to it's having air pockets...

[crabbyjim]

Booo!!!

[sharkskin]

Hi Kate and welcome to the family!!

Another area of interest on all things vintage scuba is vintage underwater photography. Many of us, who started either with single hose metal regulators or DH also started with film underwater cameras, and similarly to that sense of direct connection and accountability of our performance underwater when diving with vintage diving equipment, vintage underwater photography will also make you way more conscious about what you're looking to capture underwater. Now with Ebay is easer than ever (even easier than the old days of film) to buy all kinds of underwater camera systems. Complete Nikonos System, including bodies, lenses, stobes, close up and macro kits are widely available and believe me, the photo results using these 'old high-end' systems are as good if not better than many of the top line DSLR systems of today. Slide film is highly recommended for underwater photography (richer color saturation and details) and happily major manufacturers, including FUJI and KODAK are expanding their slide film portfolio (including the return of Ektachrome). I still take both a modern (Sony+Sea & Sea strobes) and Nikonos system (Nik V) to my dive trips and I'm embarrassed to admit that some of the photos taken with my 35 year old camera still look better than my $4,000 digital rig.

[technidiver]

Jan 20, 2019 8:22:42 GMT -8 crabbyjim said:

Dove the Breakwater in Monterey yesterday in "modified vintage" style.  Steel 72 from 1972, DAAM with backplate and bubble from VDH.  Didn't have it low enough on my back so breathing head down was noticeably harder than head's up.  Other than the cramps in both calves, a very enjoyable dive.  As I was loading my gear into the truck, a guy came by and said that he was surprised that parts were available for "old gear like that".  We talked for a bit and I suggested this forum and VDH. 

The people I dove with were somewhat put off by the double hose.  "Where is your safe second?"  Didn't they teach you buddy breathing and free ascent, I asked innocently?  While safe seconds are a good idea, too many modern divers think that they are a panacea and a substitute for the skills we were routinely taught 40-50 years ago.  While visibility was 20 feet or so yesterday, a buddy who is 10 feet distant and swimming away from you may not be an option if you experience an equipment malfunction.  I routinely practice free ascents but the thought of taking the regulator out of the mouth, throwing your head back and exhaling on the way to the surface causes expressions of shock and horror in some people.

Anyway, I had a good time yesterday even though my calves are still sore.

CJ, how often do you get cramps in your calves? What fins do you use? Are they Jet Fins or similar?

TD

[crabbyjim]

The fins are Apollo split fins that I purchased in 2000. Cramps just happen.  I do a three mile, uphill death march at least five days a week but I suspect that the cramps are caused by a lack of hydration.

[bdiver1351]

I used the Navy Dive Tables since 1974 when I was certified. Still using then 45 years later. I never take more than 2 dives a day, so the tables work for me.