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Post by SeaRat on Jul 27, 2019 22:36:09 GMT -8
 Phil, I'm really glad you didn't give up-- BRAVO GOOD SIR! As of late I've been geeking out on vintage fishing gear, 1940's-50's... JB EDIT: I've got some Dacor cans and a 400 I really want to do this to... I was close to despair. But, things become clear if you think on 'em enough. There'd be a fair amount of work to do on Dacor cans for them to work with this mod. Before you begin again, let me again explain the hose-within-a-hose concept, as I think this is an answer for you. But it is late, and I need to head for bed. Tomorrow... John |
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Post by technidiver on Jul 28, 2019 3:21:20 GMT -8
John, for the hose in hose concept, what size/type of hose would you recommend? Just wondering myself, as I’d like to try what a DX over pressure would be like!
TD
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Post by vance on Jul 28, 2019 8:01:36 GMT -8
John,
No need to explain. I've had a couple of Over-pressure regulators with the original hose-in-hose and I am very familiar with the concept. I also have some O-P parts, including the valve side hose barb. It is an idea worth considering, but is complicated.
The problem is the mouthpiece, which would be difficult to make. Even harder to make, the intake non-return presents difficulties. A simple air director, a venturi tube, or an extended second stage body like Herman used might be more practical.
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Post by SeaRat on Jul 28, 2019 22:02:29 GMT -8
 IMG_1181 by John Ratliff, on Flickr This is my DX Overpressure Breathing regulator, which is a single stage regulator which incorporates the hose-within-a-hose concept of the Venturi. It is one of my quietest regulators, and I have newer-style SCBA hoses on it, which lengthens the hose loop, giving me the ability to have it in a much better position than the original hoses (which were too short, IMHO). The reasons for the DX Overpressure Breathing regulator being discontinued in favor first of the Stream AIr, then the Mistral, was the taste of the hoses (apparently awful), the spray coming out of the Venturi holes in the mouthpiece, it being "too easy breathing" to some old-time divers, and the short hoses. A lot of divers don't realize it, but the metal mouthpiece of the DX Overpressure Breathing regulator was copied to a degree by later single hose regulators. Take a look at the second stage of the Scubapro 109, and the Dacor Olympic regulators:  IMG_1184 by John Ratliff, on Flickr These regulators also have a metal tube that directs air directly down the mouthpiece into the diver's mouth. But you don't hear the same complaints from single hose divers about the "spray." Why? Because their opening is not three small holes drilled in the tube, but rather a larger slot that doesn't make any water into a mist. Both Dacor Olympic and Pacer regulators used this concept, as did the Scubapro 109. The point is that the single hose regulators used this concept, to great effect. It really doesn't matter about the length of the hose either, as air acts like an incompressible fluid during these flows. The reaction to the opening of the valve is nearly instantaneous. My thought would be to route a hose out of the side of the second stage Housing, making a slight "S" shaped turn to go straight down the intake hose to the mouthpiece. At the mouthpiece, it would then be hooked to a tube (probably plastic or Delrin). The intake wagon wheel would need to be drilled to accept the tube, with a connector for the hose. The non-return valve would need to Be punched to fit over the tube, and be glued to the wagon wheel on the middle area. This would work best with the "Straight" USD mouthpiece (still available, now in silicone). A curved mouthpiece could also be used, but the tube would then need either to be curved or to be the erifice with a deflector (more on that later). On the far side, the tube could be notched and deadended to force air out the slot directed at the mouthpiece. Wither the Dacor or Scubapro slot could be duplicated for air flow out of the system and into the diver's mouth. Exhalation would not be impeded under this concept. The main air flow would be through the small tube, but would cause a Venturi which also draws air through the larger hose, just as with the DX Overpressure Breathing regulator. The use of a Mistral orifice with this Olympic double hose won't work well, as it is designed to point directly down the intake hose. The hose-within-a-hose is the better concept in my opinion. Both Dacor and Scubapro used the concept in their single hose regulators, and the length of the hose doesn't matter. Johne |
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Post by SeaRat on Jul 29, 2019 4:35:58 GMT -8
Here's another example of a single hose regulator using the small hose concept, but in a different way. Again, it doesn't matter how long the hose is, as the response is nearly instantaneous.  IMG_1183 by John Ratliff, on Flickr John |
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Post by vance on Jul 29, 2019 8:43:27 GMT -8
Thanks, John. You have included some good ideas for building an h-in-h setup. Attaching a mushroom type valve to the intake side non-return is one problem. USD made a ring shaped rubber valve that had two small retainers that held it in place so the little hose could go through the center. This would be hard to duplicate. Gluing it on may work, but I'm not sure it would be very secure. Maybe just a couple of little screws?   Making and attaching the mouthpiece internals would be a nightmare. The O-P mp was metal, and they soldered it all up. I guess you could make a metal or plastic tube insert that slips into the straight USD mp and hang the small hose assembly on that. Plastic would be best to eliminate corrosion, if you could find material that glues up solidly. A simple tube air director from the second stage to the intake horn would probably work well. It could be curved to fit or flexible. I'm not convinced that the tube/hose has to go all the way to the mouthpiece. My Titan IIs have a very strong venturi just by pointing the jet hole at the base of the intake tube. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 10:54:10 GMT -8
I made a hose in a hose when I was messing around with the Dacor Mk2 I was playing with. (scraped due to the sorry lever system and poor 2nd stage of the Dacor's DHR's)....I was using a Dacor mouthpiece...I used a plastic hose fitting with a male threaded end on one side. I took the center of the intake mushroom and bored the center out so the threaded end would fit, punched a hole in the mushroom center, fit it over the threaded end and used a plastic washer to secure the mushroom with another female threaded fitting that I sealed the end and cut a small vent in its side to direct the air into the mouth. That part worked pretty good, it was the assembly of levers and 2nd stage body that stopped me from further development. I saw the the parts a few weeks ago in a box in my garage. Let me look for them and I will photograph and up load tonight. Right now I have to go get my wife from work, pick up one of our dogs from the beauty parlor and (maybe) pick up my repaired Ford if its ready.
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Post by SeaRat on Jul 29, 2019 15:34:13 GMT -8
Here's what Ol' Mossback is talking about being the nightmare, the Dacor lever system.  IMG_8525 by John Ratliff, on Flickr  IMG_8524 by John Ratliff, on Flickr I look forward to seeing your images of that experiment. John |
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Post by SeaRat on Jul 29, 2019 17:10:17 GMT -8
This morning at 5:00 AM, the telltale "ping" of a cell phone message hit my ears, twice. It wasn't for me, it was on my wife, Chris', cell phone. She asked me what it said, as she had just gotten off a weekend shift at the Oregon Health and Science University's hospital, as a clinical pharmacist. The message, that one pharmacist had called in sick and there was an open shift, and it was the same area she had worked on this last weekend. After considering it for a few minutes, she decided to go to work, and said "You can go diving too, but only if you do chores outside first." So I drove her to work, got more sleep, then did chores until about 11:00 AM. Then I changed into my swimsuit, got my sandles on and a T-shirt, loaded my dive gear, and headed out to the Clackamas River at High Rocks. My scuba today was my DX Overpressure Breathing regulator, with a fitting for my SPG, a steel 72 on a backpack, my Para-Sea BCD, my shorty wet suit with a hood (water is over 70 degrees now), boots, knife, mask with SeawiscopeEY on it, and my Forward Unit for the Sea Turtle/Dolphin swimming technique. I also had my float along, and informed the lifeguards of my dive plan. As I got close to my entry point on the river, I noticed a mother duck with her duckling in tow. She had only one, so must have had some tragedies over the last several months. I was amazed when the mother duck wiggled her head, and the duckling dove underwater for about 10 seconds. She did this several times as I watched. Then I decided to head for the water, waded in as the ducks scurried off downcurrent. I put my mask on first, then the DX Overpressure Breathing regulator mouthpiece into my mouth. Breathing compressed air, I put on my fins in deeper water, deflated my Para-Sea BC, and glided underwater. With the Forward Unit in my hands, I put the lanyard for my float on the Foreward Unit's handle, then kicked a few times into the current to cross toward the far side. The DX Overpressure Breathing regulator was providing very easy breathing, and I was glad I had it. This was my first dive with it this year, and I always enjoy this regulator.  IMG_2729 by John Ratliff, on Flickr Last year's photo of one of the bass in the Clackamas River at High Rocks. Heading downstream, I got to the submerged tree, and under it was a large bass. I watched it for a minute, while it watched me from under the tree's trunk. The bass had a good hiding place, as the bottom was about three feet under the trunk, but the entire tree was sunk into the bottom and invisible from the surface. Just behind the bass was a large-scale sucker too. I shoved off, and headed downstream. I was happy to see that my lanyard to the line holder for my float worked well with the Foreward Unit.  IMG_0006 by John Ratliff, on Flickr Here is my Foreward Unit, second generation, from the pool last winter. I glided past huge boulders in the river, and settled onto the bottom behind in slack current. I flipped down my SeawiscopeEY, and watched very small fish on the bottom. With the quietness of the DX Overpressure Breathing regulator, I was able to watch these tiny fish from inches away without disturbing them. The air rushing down the Ventuir tube withinthe inhalation hose quieted every inhalation, so as not to disturb these small fish. With other regulators I have to hold my breath to get this close, but not today. Pushing off again, I went downstream, and then because of the depth had to let more line out of my line keeper for the float to stay near the bottom. I turned into the current, used the Foreward Unit and dolphin kick and was easily able to go upstream. A lure showed itself in the rocks, and I picked it up, opened my BC pocket, and inserted it, then closed the velcro closure for the pocket. Further downstream, I spotted a grey-colored sculpin, turned around in the current, and swam back upstream to the sculpin. I again flipped down the SeawiscopeEY so I could focus very closely, and again observed it from inches away. These littly fishes are not particularly skittish, but getting this close undesturbed is easy with the DX Overpressure Breathing regulator. I looked at my guage, and I was at 23 feet on the bottom. I then tucked the guage cluster under my tank to keep it away from the bottom, and kept swimming downstream. I was about to go under the footbridge (converted railroad bridge) when a rectangular, black shape caught my eye. It was a Samsung cell phone! I grabbed it, gathered my line into the line holder, and surfaced to put this cell phone into my float's compartment for safe keeping (I had lost one on a previous dive in my Para-Sea BC's pocket when it opened in the current and fell out, unbeknownst to me). Then I was nearing my exit point. I stopped in about six feet of water, still having some 800 psig of air in my tank, and looked at the small fish and invertebrates in the bottom and on the rocks. The rocks, when looked at close-up, have little structures of vegetation about half an inch long covering the rocks. I think if more people looked at these small things, there would be more interest in freshwater diving. Little yellow insect nymphs stroked their way through the bottom detritus covering the sand and rock bottom.  IMG_2734 by John Ratliff, on Flickr I photographed these insect nymphs last year. Then it was time to exit. I surfaced, gathered the line for my float, then braced my legs on the rocks and removed my fins. I then carefully got the float and fins out of the water, and picked my way up out of the water. A family was there, and the husband offered to assist me, but I told him I had a method to this exiting madness, and I simply had to do it slowly so as to avoid slipping and falling. Finally, I was on dry land, and could take the snorkel out of my mouth and my mask off. I put the snorkel into my mouth both to breath when removing my fins, and also to have something soft in my mouth incase of a slip onto my face (I did that when in the service in Iceland on a skating lake, and went from four points of contact with one motion to my face hitting the ice--don't know how that happened to this day, and haven't reapeated it, but I still take the precaution.) Then it was simply the workout of walking out to the car. When I got there, I took a swig of air from my regulator, and the DX Overpressure Breathing regulator gave me a bunch of water down the throat--the hoses had been dangling in the water, and I had not cleared them. So there is one disadvantage to a very easy-breathing regulator, but this can happen with any regulator with water inside. John |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 18:00:07 GMT -8
Well, this is embarrassing. I can not find the mouthpiece with the wagon wheel attachment nor the modified 2nd stage. They are lurking around in the garage somewhere. The 2nd stage I soldered a piece of brass screw I had and drilled and threaded a hole for a hose nipple. Attached it and ran a 3/8 id vinyl hose to the mouthpiece and connected it as stated previously. The crappy dual lever did not help at all and at that time I was stymied on a fix, so I rethought and moved to the larger better breathing USD regs. Photo showing the Mk-2 IP adjustment nut and IP diaphragm retaining nut.  2010jan3photo package 1 918 by Michael Story, on Flickr Here you can see the brass screw I soldered into the 2nd stage.....this was a fit check before drilling and threading for the hose nipple.  2010jan3photo package 1 920 by Michael Story, on Flickr Vertical view of the nightmare of a Dacor.  2010jan3photo package 1 919 by Michael Story, on Flickr End result.  2010jan3photo package 1 922 by Michael Story, on Flickr Prior to water test. Setting up the IP presssure.  2010jan3photo package 1 924 by Michael Story, on Flickr Like I said, it was a dead end. But I learned and started with a slighly bigger valve to fit the USD AM and Ram. My machinest used plastic at first to save cash and valuable brass pucks.  2010jan3photo package 1 927 by Michael Story, on Flickr  2010jan3photo package 1 929 by Michael Story, on Flickr Which ended up with the Mk-3  newreg3 by Michael Story, on Flickr  regulator body 1 by Michael Story, on Flickr  regulator body 2 by Michael Story, on Flickr  2010jan3photo package 1 932 by Michael Story, on Flickr  5reg - Copy by Michael Story, on Flickr  Untitled by Michael Story, on Flickr |
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Post by SeaRat on Jul 29, 2019 19:50:28 GMT -8
After my dive today, I picked up my wife and Chris and I enjoyed ourcovered backyard area. I had several of the regulators I photographed above to put together. I screwed together my MR-12-III, which is a plastic second stage. I looked at it closely, and started imagining a double hose mouthpiece built on this system. How would that happen?
Well, again as a mind experiment, how could the H-in-H concept along with the MR-12 II and MR-12 III tube to the mouthpiece? If we want to keep the double hose mouthpiece, and yet have H-in-H for Venturi, what would happen if we bypassed the mouthpiece body and hooked the tube directly into the mouthpiece tube like on the MR-12 III? We could have the inner hose poke through to the outside just short of the body of the mouthpiece/mushroom non-return, either through the outer hose, or with an insert attached to the wagon wheel for the inhalation valve. The tube would then arc up to the mouthpiece itself and attach to the top right side of the mouthpiece. If using a USD straight mouthpiece, an angled baffle plate could be attached to the center separator at about a 20-30 degree angle, producing the whirling Venturi known for the MR-12 II and MR-12 III. The non-return mushroom valves would remain intact.
I was feeling good about this concept, then began thinking in a different direction. I was thinking of the Dacor Pacer Aeor regulator second stage, which sports a nozzle angled at 90 degrees right under the mouthpiece. My question: what would happen if we had the inner tube terminate just short of the wagon wheel, perhaps ata attached to it, and the mouthpiece was a DSV mouthpiece with its baffle already established? Could someone use a nozzle designed to exert enough velocity to both open the silicone mushroom valve and still provide the Venturi needed for easy breathing? I think it could be done.
Those were my thoughts for the afternoon.
John
PS, Michael, I will get my Mossback Mk 3 wet again soon with the LaSpiro Professional Mouthpiece in place. I really enjoy your post above showing some of its history.
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Post by SeaRat on Aug 1, 2019 17:45:34 GMT -8
A couple of us still have the DX Overpressure Breathing regulator from the early 1950s. We've also experimented with either changing this regulator, or making an entirely new regulator with the hose-within-a-hose venturi concept. What this concept does is take the Venturi air from the regulator body for a double hose regulator, and pipe it directly to the mouthpiece. The DX Overpressure regulator does this, and there have been attempts to do this with a new regulator by Ol' Mossback. So here are some posts about this.
John
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Post by vance on Aug 2, 2019 16:34:08 GMT -8
I MIGHT get jiggy with the h-in-h concept. I like these kind of experiments, and I MIGHT have taken first steps toward working up one. No promises, but I have an idea....
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Post by SeaRat on Sept 14, 2019 14:56:51 GMT -8
I just got out of the Clackamas River at High Rocks after a 55 minute dive, using my twin steel 52s and my USD Overpressure Breathing regulator, along with my new concept in underwater swimming, the sea turtle-dolphin technique in my second generation forward unit. I had a very good diver. I also wore my Para-Sea BCD, but without a power inflator. At one point, at about twenty feet I was a bit heavy, and so blew one breath into the Para-Sea BCD, then purged the Overpressure Breathing regulator by bringing it up for a free-flow. Overall, the regulator performed very well, but is a bit of a wet breather. Water comes in around the mouthpiece, or when I'm on the surface and let it go into the water and not my mouth. This requires purging the water by exhaling during a roll on my left side and back. Once that's accomplished, there is no problem at all. The metal mouthpiece was fine, and I was able to watch small fish underwater for extended times, very close up. Here's a photo of these little fish that I took earlier this summer.  IMG_0012 by John Ratliff, on Flickr  IMG_2714 by John Ratliff, on Flickr This photo of these little fish was taken a year ago in the same area. These little fish are all over the bottom, and apparently find a great deal of food in the algea, sponge, and sand around them. Using my sea turtle-dolphin technique, I pursued a fall steelhead that was swimming rather slowly away from me, and was able to keep up with it for a little while. I had to be careful as I was also carrying a line holder to my float, and so had to maneuver so as to not tangle myself. While swimming, I found one lure, one golf ball, and a gal's ear ring. The ring looked expensive, and so I put it into my Para-Sea BCD pocket for later investigation.* When I got shallower, I needed to purge my BCD of air or become too buoyant. My twin 52s are steel, but float, and so I had about six pounds of lead on the USD harness (non-dropable). As I surfaced, I noticed a German shepherd dog coming to investigate this weird sighting (of me), then going back to its owner. The owner was throwing a stick into the water for the dog to retrieve. Getting out is always a problem, and a hazard. My first place was not good, so after removing my fins, I had to move downstream about 10 feet to find a better exit area on the rock, one which had sturdy footholds on the rock so I could get out without falling on my face. I made this move with my Overpressure Breathing mouthpiece is place, breathing off the scuba. But exiting, I removed that one and reploced it with my Scubapro Shotgon snovkel mouthpiece. I do this just in case I do a faceplant, as I would have my rubber mouthpiece in place (the Overpressure mouthpiece is rubber, but ona metal mouthpiece, which could hurt during a faceplant). The dive was about 55 minutes, depth about 22 feet at the deepest, and I wore a full wet suit without gloves. I can see why people did not like the Overpressure Breathing regulator, though it breathes quite well. The wet breathing, as well as not having an exhalation non-return, makes using it more difficult. I'm probably one of the only people who currently dive this regulator too. I know that a lot of people really like the Mistral and its orifice. But I read from Fred Roberts in Basic Scuba, "...The orifice of the Mistral has been redesigned to overcome the difficulty of the DW and approach the performance of the DX, without the gush of air..." (emphasis added, jcr) Since I have much longer than original hoses on this regulator, I really like diving it. I took a few iPhone photos after the dive.  IMG_1235 by John Ratliff, on Flickr Here's what my reflection in the Honda Pilot's window looked like:  IMG_1234 by John Ratliff, on Flickr My twin steel 52s with the Overpressure Breathing regulator attached:  IMG_1254 by John Ratliff, on Flickr Closeup of the Overpressure Breathing regulator:  IMG_1256 by John Ratliff, on Flickr John *I took the ear ring to Fred Meyer's jewlrey department, and it is not a diamond. So it will be on the shelf along with one other shell ear ring, necklesses and fishing lures that have come out of the river. PS, I've really got to remember to smile when I take a selfie. Otherwise, I'll get the nickname, "Crabby SeaRat." PS2, I now have two regulators with the hose-within-a-hose concept. Stand by for further information. |
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Post by SeaRat on Sept 21, 2019 22:29:41 GMT -8
September 14th, 2019 I decided to run an experiment after I got back from my dive. I went to my shed, and decided to experiment with my Healthways Gold Label and not my USD Mistral, as I prefer the ring over the clips to get inside the boxes. I had found the inner tubing I used for my DX Overpressure before replacing it, so I had it already in my "stuff" (and rediscovered it). I found out that if I took the mouthpiece off (USD hose/mouthpiece system), and took the hose off the can, I could simply work it down the hose, through the inhalation horn and that it fit right over the Venturi orifice. I then put the regulator together, without a wagonsheel, and found that with the inner hose on one side of the mouthpiece opening, it breathed quite well. I then took it apart again, notched out an opening in the side of the tube, but inside the mouthpiece, oriented it toward the mouthpiece, and breathed off it. Again, quite good performance. Then I slotted the end of the hose, placed to slots inside the exhalation wagon wheel, put it back together, and again had very good results.
That's where this experiment stands right now. I tried modifying the wagon wheel with a drill to accept the hose, but ended up destroying two of the spokes. I also need to figure out how to imbed the hose within the intake wagon wheel, block off the end of the hose, and capture the hose in the correct orientation on the exhalation wagonsheel so that the opening is pointed directly down the mouthpiece.
John
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