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Post by snark3 on Dec 13, 2019 16:23:35 GMT -8
I like the cool factor of the vintage gear. It gets allot of looks at the dive site. There is also the fact that the old just works and works and works.
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Post by SeaRat on Dec 13, 2019 17:41:25 GMT -8
I like the cool factor of the vintage gear. It gets allot of looks at the dive site. There is also the fact that the old just works and works and works.A lot of folks don't realize that the scuba units they buy today have many, many potential failure points that the vintage gear don't have. Here's the total number of O-rings and failure points on a double hose DA Aquamaster/Mistral and twin tanks with a J-valve: Double Hose regulators/manifoldDA Aquamaster: 1 O-ring (connection between the manifold and the regulator). Mistral: 1 O-ring (connection between the manifold and the regulator) The Mistral has only 6 moving parts. Tanks: 2 O-rings on the connection to the tanks (if you go really old, with the 1/2 inch tapered threads, there is only the O-ring connection to the regulator). The J-valve has one O-ring, I believe. Mistral SDM Article 1959 by John Ratliff, on Flickr The double hose regulators are almost immune to freeze-up, as the regulator mechanism is protected and housed inside the box, and therefore not exposed to water. This is especially true for Dacor's Double-Diaphragm regulators (Dacor R-3 and R-4), where even the demand diaphragm is protected from the water; these regulators have been tested to -65 degrees F by Dacor. IMG_0604 by John Ratliff, on Flickr Dacor Double Hose Regulators by John Ratliff, on Flickr Today's single hase regulators:Regulator First stage: ....Piston: 2 O-rings internal, one for hose. (There may be three, as some pistons have a double O-ring or "sweeper" ring to keep the O-ring clearer.) ....Diaphragm: 1 for hose. Regulator Second Stage: ....Hose: 1 O-ring ...Seat: 1 O-ring (not on all single hose regs) Most single hose regulators are very susceptable to freeze-up, as the regulator second stage is exposed to water both from the diver's breath and from the ambient water. Most single hose regulators will freeze-up and free flow in waters at about 38 degrees F in fresh water. Photo on 11-30-18 at 10.43 PM by John Ratliff, on Flickr John
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Post by crabbyjim on Dec 14, 2019 6:35:37 GMT -8
"A lot of folks don't realize that the scuba units they buy today have many, many potential failure points that the vintage gear don't have."
John, once again your good nature has led you to overestimate the the intelligence and motivation of human beings. I did an informal survey at one of the local dive clubs which confirmed something we all know: most divers don't know how their equipment works. They don't care either.
I will be the first to admit that I have little capacity to understand how things work. The last automobile that I worked on was a 1968 Volks Wagon. I rebuilt the carburetor, first clearing off my workbench and covering it with white paper, then laying out the parts and the directions and carefully following them. When I installed the rebuilt carb it worked well, but to my chagrin there were three parts left over.
When I read the posts by you and others about how different regulators work I hit the books and videos in an attempt to understand what you are writing about. Sadly, it it still difficult to understand. for example, I understand the concept of mechanical advantage but I frequently get lost when someone talks about a specific application of the concept.
The foregoing is just a long way of pointing out that most people don't think about potential failure points in equipment that they don't understand. They buy their gear at the dive shop where they get their certification and don't care how their pricey, new equipment works as long as it works as intended.
You and all of the people on this forum and others are a wonderful anomaly in a culture that values new and improved. I appreciate all of you for what you do and what I have learned from you. Looking forward to our spring gathering at Clear Lake.
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Post by SeaRat on Dec 14, 2019 10:14:32 GMT -8
CJ, I have a background in product safety engineering, and so have actually conducted Failure Modes and Effects Analysis on industrial processes. At my last workplace, we were under the OSHA Process Safety program, and I needed to make a FMEA of both ammonia and IPA (not the beer, but isopropyl alcohol). The ammonia system converted pure ammonia and made ammonium hydroxide. We needed to look at what a failure of each component (valve, for instance) would do on components upstream and downstream of that failed component. We did this for each component in the system. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_mode_and_effects_analysisOne of the things that is happening is that our single hose scuba gear is now undergoing "planned obsolescence," to the point where the new ultra-flexible low pressure hoses don't last. Recommended replacement is now 5 years, according to some posts I've read in ScubaBoard. I have LP hoses that are 50, that's "five-zero" years old and still working. But the process for this ultra-flexibility also promotes a breakdown in the hose itself. IMG_2471 by John Ratliff, on Flickr The hose to this Professional Aquamatic is over 50 years old. hose-internal-view by John Ratliff, on Flickr Here is a newer superflex hose that has developed problems, from an internal breakdown of materials. Superflex hose deterioration by John Ratliff, on Flickr This came out of the hose. Some manufacturing has been sent out to places where the processes are not tested well. This led to the super-flex hose problems, from what I can tell. john
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Post by nikeajax on Dec 14, 2019 10:31:32 GMT -8
That's a last generation of the Healthways with the black exhaust, and the other is the IDI, but, it came from the Scubamaster, which came from the final HW-interation the Scuba Star-II John, once again your good nature has led you to overestimate the the intelligence and motivation of human beings. I did an informal survey at one of the local dive clubs which confirmed something we all know: most divers don't know how their equipment works. They don't care either. Yeah, I agree, most people are proud to be ignorant: let's hear it for rise of anti-intellectualism JB
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Post by vance on Dec 14, 2019 12:31:16 GMT -8
While perhaps a bit off-topic for this thread (nothing new with this lot), John and CJ make points that illustrate why some of us are interested in scuba gear, at least in part. In my original post here, I presented my motivation for the hobby. I like to tinker, understand how things work, and make improvements (or changes) to the equipment rather than to possess a bunch of collectible items. This interest has led to learning and improving in other areas, such as machine work, welding and soldering, etc.
The upshot of this is that I will end up possessing a bunch of modified, homemade, hotrodded, and otherwise rendered useless Frankenregs that no one else will want!
Cool.
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Post by vance on Dec 14, 2019 12:37:57 GMT -8
,... but to my chagrin there were three parts left over. This just means your rebuild was more efficient than the oem carburetor builder's! Well done!
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Post by tomcatpc on Dec 14, 2019 18:00:39 GMT -8
Why vintage scuba diving for me? I don't know, i just like it. I tend to gravitate towards older things anyway, been like that all my life. Once I started actually diving vintage regulators, and started to dive without a BC, to get used to a J-Valve, etc., that sealed the deal. I can't recall that last time I dove modern gear? Mark
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Post by snark3 on Dec 14, 2019 19:22:39 GMT -8
Mark- The older stuff you're talking about is the stuff I learned to dive with. It was not "state of the art" but good equipment then. I still have and use my first tank with a J valve and the USD Aquarius that I bought in 1975. In my open water dive to finish my certification not one person wore a BC. Some wore what I refer to as "emergency flotation devices" some used 2 hose regulators.
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Post by sitkadiver on Dec 16, 2019 5:47:40 GMT -8
There was an old TV show made by the BBC in the 1970's called Connections, hosted by James Burke: I was just telling a co-worker about Connections earlier tonight.... Yeah working nights again.... Great show....
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Post by tomcatpc on Dec 16, 2019 6:53:53 GMT -8
I vaguely recall "Connections", all be it on reruns by that time. Mark
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Post by nikeajax on Dec 16, 2019 8:24:54 GMT -8
Sitka-Dave, where ya been my friend?!?!?!? JB
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Post by SeaRat on Dec 16, 2019 13:29:55 GMT -8
I was just telling a co-worker about Connections earlier tonight.... Yeah working nights again.... Great show.... J James Burke is still around! en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Burke_(science_historian)That was an interesting video. Your working nights is no big surprise, as "night" defined by sunset is 3:40 pm for you today, and sunrise is at 10:11 am tomorrow. So if you're working at all, some of it is at night. This particular show, which finally got around to the secret of the universe, took some interesting turns. But Burke forgot the part about the initiation rites of the AMA divers, and their tea party traditions for warming up after diving, which were finally adopted by the Japanese Buddhists, and formed the basis of that part of his program. John PS, I made up the part about the AMA divers and their tea party, but, who knows, connections occur in the strangest places.
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Post by nikeajax on Dec 16, 2019 14:50:48 GMT -8
Another really cool BBC show that goes hand-in-hand with Connections is:
The Secret Life of Machines. I wish they'd remake it...
JB
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Post by sitkadiver on Dec 16, 2019 18:26:19 GMT -8
Sitka-Dave, where ya been my friend?!?!?!? JB Work, WORk Work, Work.... I'm trying to get back into a real life. the past two years, we have had a huge turn over of employees. I hope to be diving again this winter - after February 1st, I'm fully staffed.
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