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Post by scubadiverbob on Dec 23, 2006 22:36:19 GMT -8
everyones showing off their horsecollars ... here is mine (with my new yellow hoses). Note: I have my ScubaPro BC inflated on the surface; underwater I keep it almost totally deflated ... part of being properly weighted an nuetrally bouyant. Sorry, no picture of my Nikonos here ... My dive buddy was taking my picture with it. Notice on the ScubaPro there is no bladder ... Robb can you make one like that?
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Post by OystrPir8 on Dec 23, 2006 23:36:43 GMT -8
I don't think she will do bladderless. Sorry. There is one guy I've heard of who might, but you won't have much choice as far as color or anything and it would take some homework to find the guy. Yeah - I like the eclectic idea. Wings seem like a very good option - easier to hang from. The real problem is that at the surface you want one type of flotation and down under you'd want another. (hence the Dacor and ParaSea BCs) I LOVE being as neutral and unencumbered as possible and I am growing darned tired of feeling like I am only allowed to dive in an ocean owned and regulated by this or that agency, manufacturing company or environmental group. In the past, the ocean was huge and full of wonder and possibility. Now it is portrayed as tiny and conquered - like a museum piece where everyone must keep their hands crossed in front of them and stay well behind the velvet rope. I LOVE the innovation of the past and am quite put off by the regulation/standardization that seems so prevalent right now. (Notice that my BC is RED with BRIGHT reflective tape instead of BLACK.) Independence, self sufficiency & innovation is what truly drove me toward this vintage "movement." Divers here solve their own problems so that they can spend time exploring the underwater world their way... Pretty neat - I'm glad I found you guys. Merry Christmas! Robert, Terry - We do need to go diving SOON! We're ONLY 2 hours away from each other.
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Post by nemrod on Dec 24, 2006 2:23:08 GMT -8
Your red BC is outstanding and the ocean is still huge--no worries there and you can join my anti -DIR and anti-PadI war if you like. I plan to take the fight to them ---lol.
Ok, the black thing, every place I go to dive there are boats and water skiers and jet skis and so what do scuba divers do?, well, of course they dress in black!!! and then wonder why they get run over. While the public at large has no idea what that orange flag is they do recognize the human form--when they can see it. Dive gear should be orange and yellow and blue and red with reflective tapes and radar reflective tabs, anything but black. Well, at least they are dressed for a funeral, their's.
I heard a stupid USCG public service adv that told boaters to be on the lookout for scuba divers dressed in black as they may be terrorists---well, that is just about eveybody then. Next Homeland Gestapo will pass a law that black dressed divers will cause a code orange alert and you will spend 20 years in the goolag or something.
Nemrod
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Post by scubadiverbob on Dec 24, 2006 2:37:38 GMT -8
Only problem now and in the very near future is snow melt. The picture in the river was a month ago and the water temp. at the surface was 50 degrees in the sun. Under the bridge and at depth probably 40 - 45 degrees. I did this in a Hinderson 7/5 with a 3mm hood (really I don't like hoods; but, I'm getting older and so are my ears). Most people use drysuits (not getting wet I think would take the fun out of diving). What's your cold tolerance? Until about May the water may get colder; but, while diving the river you can always get to the bank to warm up a little. I got to get a job soon to be able to get gas to go diving. Also, I have another horsecollar that needs the seams in the bladder re-glued. I was going to try aquaseal; but, was wanting to know what the place you had do your bc would charge to repair the bladder. If you could find out let me know. My bc is bright red (the one that needs repair).
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Post by OystrPir8 on Dec 24, 2006 9:27:00 GMT -8
Ill have to call her after the holidays. Like I said, she was hesitant to do mine as a single order - if I wasn't a dive shop or something. I know she can make new bladders and can build off of just about any prototype or drawing. I am trying to put it all together so we can all be taken care of. It seems like everyone here prefers a large degree of customization (which is cool!) Ill ask her if she is prepared for that. Prices are understandably less when you order in quantity. I'm hoping she will be OK with all of the one & 2 piece orders and that sort of thing. I know she'd prefer to make 12 or more of a single design. Prototypes usually cost quite a bit more too. I cant figure out how they can list that SeaTec horse collar in the $310.00-$483.00 range though. That seems a bit on the delusional side to me. As far as water temps, I bottom out at around 50 degrees WITH a hood. That is why we need to dive the warm toasty Northern California Ocean waters. 55 year 'round (usually) brrrrrrrrrrrr
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Post by nemrod on Dec 24, 2006 9:55:53 GMT -8
I think they list they SeaTec high because it is mostly sold to military and professioal and Public Safety divers/swimmers. The market is small and thus it is high and it, the SeaTec, is probably the one on the equipment list they are provided or however that works.
I doublt that place your talking to is going to make a bunch of different designs,she is probably just going to make what she makes--take it or leave it.
Repairs??, that is a good question, does anybody know a place that can make and install new bladders etc, my Dacor sure needs two new bladders to feel all spiffy and spry again. Before I go off and buy something new I ought to try and fix my old friend.
Nemrod
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Post by SeaRat on Dec 24, 2006 11:30:40 GMT -8
I totally agree with you about the colors. When I dive, I wear a yellow helmet with silver reflective tape on it. I am a great believer in being seen, as in the 1970s this led to my buddy and me being picked up by the Coast Guard off the Oregon Coast after being rolled by a twenty-foot wave on our dive. I ought to tell that story sometime. This was before the wave rolled us. The next one, which shows my dive buddy without his helmet (it was held on by velcro), was after being rolled, and I was without my mask, as was by buddy too. We were connected the whole time by a 4 foot, 1/4" nylon buddy line attached to two buddy belts I had custom made by the USAF Reserve Life Support Shop. Our girl friends called the Coast Guard when we could not get back in to shore. I was wearing a redish-orange white-water kayaking helmet with white lines on it (white tape). That got us seen, and I still have that helmet. My Para-Sea BC design prototypes were made with red fabric, and on the front pocket I had them stitch a very high reflective tape, 1.25" x 9". I also used yellow straps for the harness system. I do have a black wet suit, but I'm trying to loose enough weight to use my Harvey's wet suit with orange arms and side stripes (1980s version, pull-over top and Farmer John bottom, skin in). It's still in pretty good condition. I have one yellow 80 AL tank, and my USD-1 is all yellow. This photo shows the advantage of orange in the wet suit:
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Post by SeaRat on Jan 1, 2007 11:15:54 GMT -8
I was just re-reading this text, and found this quote from Nemrod: Actually, the wings on the Para-Sea BC design concept provide an alternate area for trapping air, much like the separate bladder on the Dacor BC that Nemrod uses. The ability of the air to move within the Para-Sea BC prevents this feet-down position from happening, and facilitates rolling motions. The Dacor BC traps the air under the divers chest, which is fine for the horizontal component, but would tend to stop a rolling motion when it got to the top of the roll. In using a BC for actual buoyancy compensation, the BC is never filled completely full. This happens on the surface to ensure keeping positively buoyant there. But when underwater, using the BC for actual buoyancy compensation, the diver does not fill it, but bleeds air into the BC as needed. That is about a max of 20 or so pounds, which in the regular BC becomes trapped in the neck of the BC. But the wings of the Para-Sea BC allow this air to move around as the diver moves. It also provides more insulation (an air pocket) around the divers lungs, which is a major heat source loss area, and therefore helps keep the diver warm at depth when used for buoyancy compensation. Take a close look at the Para-Sea BC in this photograph, and you will see that, while in perfect balance, the BC is not completely inflated, and only has enough air in it for actual buoyancy compensation. This photograph was taken at about 25 feet depth in Clear Lake, Oregon, which is at an altitude of about 3000 feet. Nemrod likes the back-mounted wing BC. The Para-Sea BC concept is a front-mounted wing concept, which wraps around the diver instead of up over the scuba tank. One other advantage of the Para-Sea BC concept is that it is more streamlined than the back-mounted wing and a single tank scuba (the back-mounted wing is pressed against the diver and scuba tanks when used in combination with double tanks). But the wing, on the surface, would tend to float the diver face-down, which I feel is a distinct disadvantage to this design. Bill Herder, a LDS operator in the 1970's, actually developed the back-mounted and jacket BC concepts, all made of foam neoprene. I demonstrated them at IQ6 (the Sixth International Conference on Underwater Education) in San Diego in October of 1974. It was shortly thereafter that Scubapro came out with its Stabilizing Jacket BC (Scubapro's 1986 catelog lists this innovation as coming in 1978). But originally this was Bill Herder's design, made with neoprene instead of regular BC materials. Bill also had a back-mounted BC design which I used for a number of years. It originally was in inverted neoprene bladder built into the back of his wet suits (he was a local wet suit manufacturer). He then went to a bladder-style design, which was two sandwitched layers of 1/8 inch foam neoprene which made up the back of the wet suit. That's right, this back-mounted BC was actually the back of the wet suit. It was the best back-mounted design ever to come from anyone, as it was completely streamlined. Here I'm entering the water to demonstrate the Bill Herder BC built into the back of my wet suit at IQ6 in San Diego, October 1974. Can anyone identify the people watching in the photo? But, even with the back-mounted design features, I still wore it with a front-mount vest for emergencies. I was wearing this combination when my dive buddy and I had the problem described above, and in that emergency it worked perfectly, giving me very good positive buoyancy both front and back. John
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Post by OystrPir8 on Jan 2, 2007 14:09:15 GMT -8
Hey guys,
I talked to the lady who did my horsecollar for me. Her name is Lynda.
She will only sell to dive shops and other retailers. I had had that issue before, when she made mine, but fortunately, she was willing to accept my business license and to consider my project a prototype. (she doesn't do a lot of horsecollars these days.) I had told her that hopefully if the reaction was positive that I would be able to order more. She said that she would prefer orders of at least 12.
What I seem to be finding, however, is that our members tend to be pretty innovative, outside of the box thinkers and independant (which is precisely what appeals to me about this group). The sticky side of that coin, however is that it looks like it will be difficult to get 12 or more divers to agree on any one design.
So then I thought it might be best just to ask her permission and list her business on this site for us all to go to. MAybe she could consider our group as a business. Basically she said that she didn't like that idea. Apparently each BC design needs a special tool that cuts out the bladder and the denier. It uses heat not scissors or shears so she doesn't really like to do individual single orders. The BC I had made was from an already standing design just with some alterations.
I kept pushing, though and basically she said that I could send her designs and that she would tell me what they would cost to produce and wheather or not she could do it. She prefers that any drawings be VERY clearly marked and easy to read. Please keep in mind that a prototype could be VERY expensive if it requires the making of a new tool. To alter a standing design is much easier, but even then, individual orders will run more because of the set-up and lack of assembily line manufacturing.
So I hope that gives everyone something to go on and a starting point. Please feel free to call me if you have any thoughts or questions. 510-813-8596 or to email me at OystrPir8@aol.com
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Post by shackle on Jan 3, 2007 7:38:28 GMT -8
There is a horse collar BC sold by www.divers-supply.com manufactured by Sea Elite. It comes in yellow and black and is reasonably priced at 139.95. I have no experience with it , but thought some of you might be interested.
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Post by Captain on Jan 3, 2007 7:57:28 GMT -8
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Post by OystrPir8 on Jan 3, 2007 9:07:58 GMT -8
HA! Those are made by Lynda. Thats the one that I had mine adapted from. Its a great BC. I had the knife pocket removed, and added and moved the D rings around and switched out the CO2 for an OP valve, made it in red and added reflective tape.
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Post by nemrod on Jan 3, 2007 11:04:59 GMT -8
Does anybody know of a place or a person that can repair and fabricate bladders for older BCs?
James
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Post by shackle on Jan 5, 2007 11:23:27 GMT -8
I am with you James. I have an old orange Seaquest BC that needs a blatter too and would love to find a replacement. By the way John; I really enjoy the pictures you post. You made reference to the Oregon debacle when you and I emailed regarding the tank valve. I'd like to hear the story. Why not post it when you have time?
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Post by OystrPir8 on Jan 5, 2007 20:24:25 GMT -8
Other than Linda I haven't been able to find anyone who can hand make a bladder. She said their old owner used to do it but that she doesn't know how to. Its all cut & welded with a tool. The other problem Ive run into is finding an OP valve that will fit. Apparently there is no such thing as standard. I originally just wanted to get my Dacor BC fixed but the only valves I could find were so small that the whole mechanism fit right through the hole of the old one. It was after I got exasperated from trying to piece everything together that I just decided to get a new one that wouldnt be such a pain. I still would lke to have that Dacor fixed though.
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