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Post by shackle on Mar 25, 2008 10:47:27 GMT -8
I just got a horse collar bc and wanted to get some feedback as to the co2 cartridges. Is it necessary or desireable to keep a cartridge installed, or could you leave it out if you never plan on using it?
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Post by SeaRat on Mar 25, 2008 11:18:27 GMT -8
If you leave the CO2 cartridge out, the mechanism will get wet and could corrode. It is especially hard to rinse after a dive, so leave the cartridge in. I use a 25 gram cartridge so that there is enough "uummmph" to get me up from a depth of 25-30 feet. Even if you don't think you'll use it, you need to keep one in there. If you are concerned about it inadvertently going off, then put a used cartridge into it (one already punctured). As a plus, the cartridge has the same thread diameter as vintage LP and HP ports, and so can be used as a handle to do regulator repair.
John
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Post by Broxton Carol on Mar 25, 2008 11:53:45 GMT -8
I had a co2 cartdrige in my dacor vest for 30 years and never used it. Never tried it. You ought to have one in there, as John says or the puller will get crudded up. I never used it as I always mouth inflate it, even out in the ocean to float on, swimming back to the boat. Im too cheap to pull it!
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Post by SeaRat on Mar 25, 2008 17:14:10 GMT -8
My dive buddy and I pulled ours on a dive in November of 1973, when we got rolled by 20 foot plus waves, and had to stay out in the open ocean for about two hours awaiting Coast Guard rescue. Our girl friends called the Coast Guard, and they were really glad to pick us up too. We were their first live pickups in years out of Depot Bay, Oregon. Here's what it looked like before we got rolled: Note that both Bruce and I have our helmets on. Now look after we got rolled: Note that Bruce is missing his helmet, and I'm missing my mask, which was washed away from under the white water kayaker's helmet I was using. By the way, that helmet was great, as that was what the Coast Guard saw when they found us. The helmet was bright red with white stripes, and I still have it although it is faded a bit to almost a pink color, and I put reflective tape on it after the rescue. Without that, we might still be out there (quite literally). Bruce and I passed the time by thinking that if a Russian sub launched some commandos for a raid on the USA than evening, and they swam past us, we would tell them to go back to the sub, and ask for a ride ourselves. I had a back-inflation BC built into my wet suit, which I used, along with a Dacor CO2 vest (which I still have). The 24 pound weight belt came off, the CO2 vest was inflated, and the BC was also inflated. I figured I was at least 50 pounds buoyant. We both still had usable scuba, but we enjoyed having the CO2 vests too. We were thinking we would probably have to spend the night. It was getting dark, and we didn't want to chance a evening or night landing on the rocky Oregon coast, or in one of the bays. After the rescue, and our return from the Coast Guard Station, we had supper at a restaurant overlooking the small cove (Whale Cove, from Whale Cove Inn, I believe) where we were thinking of possible landing. Looking down, and not from the ocean with 20 foot swells between us and the coastline, we could see that it was filled with logs from a previous flood. Coming in there would have been very difficult; we probably would have abandoned it if we didn't get into really bad trouble first. John
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Post by nemrod on Mar 25, 2008 17:36:12 GMT -8
Remove the darn thing if you want to. Install a 3/8 port plug and O ring and snug it down with silicone grease. I am not of the BC as life jacket school. In fact, there is the school of thought that having a loop of string with a dangly knob on it connected to a CO2 cartridge while doing a deco hang (as I did today on the Mighty O) might be a hazard. Kinda hard to hang if it snags and pops--no thanks. The needs of scuba are far different from the needs of other water activities--remove it.
Nem
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Post by nemrod on Mar 25, 2008 18:24:41 GMT -8
When I said grease I mean pump the mechanism full of grease and then install the plug and O ring to seal it and never worry again your deco stop might be interrupted. There is a reason those things were removed, they present more danger than they solve.
BTW, I have had one go off underwater, at about 60 feet they present no immediate danger as the bubble produced is fairly small as is the resulting change in bouyancy, however, an errant firing while in deco hang at 15 to 20 would make it a problem, imagine having one hand on the anchor line or jon line and the other with camera etc and trying to vent off gas in a ripping current with five foot seas and not bust your top---nah. Nem
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Post by SeaRat on Mar 25, 2008 21:28:52 GMT -8
Nem,
We're talking two different things here. First, in sport diving as it was taught in the 1960s and 1970s, we did not do decon dives (with stops, that is). No-decompression diving and staying away from the "knife edge" of the no-decompression limits was the way we at NAUI taught during that time. We also taught such things as in-water mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, and a horsecollar worked well for that. In the US Air Force, we wore underarm life preservers for both our diving and our parascuba jumps. These had two very large CO2 cartridges for inflating bags which were under our arms in an emergency (and conveniently folded into a small pouch when not in use).
Now, concerning decompression diving, yes a CO2 cartridge could be a hazard. If you are going to do decompression diving, then get rid of the CO2 cartridge. If you are not, then don't worry about it. Inadvertent CO2 cartridge firings are very rare, and can be made much rarer by using a thin copper wire to "safety" the CO2 firing mechanism so that it takes a good tug to make them work. By the way, that's the reason for that very small hole on the lever and on the base beside it--for a wire to keep it from being inadvertently activated.
One further thought is that, if you are "hanging" at 15 to 20 feet in five foot seas, you are getting a pretty good pressure change (unless you are hanging from a float with weight) that could compromise your decompression anyway. That may not be a good day to do a decompression dive.
John
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Post by duckbill on Mar 25, 2008 21:49:20 GMT -8
I agreee with Nemrod in that if you don't want it in there then you can use a standard 3/8-inch plug.
BUT............ I consider my BC primarily a life jacket, and secondarily a buoyancy control device, but, then again, I dive the Pacific coast! I feel very comfortable with having my manual-inflate-only (i.e. no power inflator) horsecollar CO2-ready. There's no stinkin' way if things get rough on the surface that I'd have an easy time trying to manually inflate that puppy in a dire emergency when I would need it most. So, if you have the capability to power-inflate and don't want the CO2, then take it out and plug it. If you want to dive vintage with a manual-only inflator, then you might want to think twice about losing that CO2 capability.
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Post by shackle on Mar 26, 2008 4:09:34 GMT -8
I sure appreciate the info. I didn't know the threads were the same as port plugs. Sounds like there are both pros and cons as well as considering the type of dive on wheather to use a cartridge or not. John, you were indeed lucky on that trip. I was in the Coast Guard stationed on the Sedge up in Homer, Ak. A lot of the SAR's we went on we didn't even find the bodies. Very small window in water that cold. BTW James, how many dives have you made on the Oriskany? Anyway, Thanks to all.
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Post by luis on Mar 26, 2008 6:12:45 GMT -8
Personally I don’t like the CO2 cartridge mechanism. I have never needed or actually triggered one in the water, but it seemed that every time I went to service one it was full of rust and corrosion. I think they may give you a false sense of security. If you ever decide to use it, make sure to remove the cartridge after every dive clean it and put silicon grease on the threads. I would also only use it on the surface.
Not to get too far out of topic, but since it was brought up (I am sure John is aware of it, but for everyone’s benefit):
All dives are decompression dives…some require stops and some don’t. This may sound as a technicality, but it is more important that just a technicality.
In all dive you need to properly outgas the absorbed inert gas and this will involve slow ascend rates and also a safety stop helps for deeper dives. I like safety stops for dives below 50 ft or 60ft, unless they are very short, but some recommend them on all dives below 30 ft.
At first I was skeptical about safety stops and deep stops, but after reading some of the new research (I do need to do a lot more reading) I am thinking that it is a very good idea. Yes we all lived with the Navy tables for years and we even think that we never got DCS; at least we didn’t get the well published acute symptoms. But, we always knew that we were playing with statistics and we have been very well aware of how little we have known about the actual mechanisms and physiology related to DCS.
Safety stops are still considered optional, but they seem to be a very good idea…in real life, no one really ascends as slow as we should.
IMHO, just like we are using modern technology (computers, the internet, new materials, rebuilding procedures, etc.) to find parts and preserve our vintage gear, we need to use modern technology (new research, dive computers, etc.) to protect our vintage bodies from DCS.
New research has shown that you can actually outgas faster on a deep stop or safety stop than on the surface with a high pressure differential. When we did our basic course, decompression theory was all based on Haldane dissolve gas theory only. Research has shown that micro bubble transport mechanics complicates the process of eliminating the absorbed inert gas.
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Post by shackle on Mar 26, 2008 9:26:51 GMT -8
Another thing occured to me. Would there be a possibility of either air leaking out of, or water entering the bladder if the mechanism was not either plugged or contained a cartridge?
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Post by BLT on Mar 26, 2008 9:27:35 GMT -8
I was in the Coast Guard stationed on the Sedge up in Homer, Ak... Very small window in water that cold. I can fully relate to that comment about the Alaskan cold water. The coldest I have ever been was when spent 5 hours (in 5 seperate dives) underwater in Homer. For most of that time, I was standing in a basket suspended at about 20, under the hull of a ship that was tied up to the ferry terminal dock which is right next to the "End of the Road hotel" for those of you who remember the radio show. One thing I found strange was that early on, we dropped a wrench and I popped down about 8 feet to pick it up, a couple hours later we dropped something else and it landed about 20-25 feet below us! Ya gotta love the Alaskan tides!
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Post by luis on Mar 26, 2008 9:59:16 GMT -8
Another thing occured to me. Would there be a possibility of either air leaking out of, or water entering the bladder if the mechanism was not either plugged or contained a cartridge? Yes, it will leak if you don’t plug it.
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Post by shackle on Mar 26, 2008 10:41:28 GMT -8
I was in the Coast Guard stationed on the Sedge up in Homer, Ak... Very small window in water that cold. I can fully relate to that comment about the Alaskan cold water. The coldest I have ever been was when spent 5 hours (in 5 seperate dives) underwater in Homer. For most of that time, I was standing in a basket suspended at about 20, under the hull of a ship that was tied up to the ferry terminal dock which is right next to the "End of the Road hotel" for those of you who remember the radio show. One thing I found strange was that early on, we dropped a wrench and I popped down about 8 feet to pick it up, a couple hours later we dropped something else and it landed about 20-25 feet below us! Ya gotta love the Alaskan tides! When were you in Homer last? I've heard it is growing out of control.
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Post by BLT on Mar 26, 2008 11:00:36 GMT -8
That was when I was working on a NOAA ship back in the late '90s
I had fun on the ship, but too much time in the Bering Sea and 245 days a year at sea were a bit much after awhile
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