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Post by time2dive on Jul 18, 2007 11:04:46 GMT -8
I ran by the possibility of a Vintage Diver Specialty through PADI in the did not outright say no, event though I mentioned no guages, no BCDs or alternate air sources. My question for all of you is what to include. This would be an "Introduction to Vintage Diving". Things that I think that should be included are; buddy breathing, how to clear a double hose regulator, SAC (surface air consumption, in other words how long can I expect my air to last), Basic double hose theory (how they work, single stage vs. two stage, balanced vs. unbalanced), and "J" valve operation. Any other suggestions?
Tim
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dbg40
Senior Diver
Posts: 66
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Post by dbg40 on Jul 18, 2007 12:42:59 GMT -8
Call me suspicious, but I don't believe that PADI would endorse anything that didn't bring a buck to them, and thier afilliate shops. Since no one is actively producing or selling double hose regs, they can't sell them. Not only that, and the fact that thier instructors have been knocking anything older than a fiew years old so that they can move more product. That, and I basically cant stand ANY "certifying" agency......
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Post by DavidRitchieWilson on Jul 20, 2007 6:36:01 GMT -8
My particular concern when it comes to vintage diving is that the few of us who have lived through the fifties and sixties and who were old enough then to be at least snorkellers, are going to get fewer as the years go on. Let's not get sidetracked by the politics of who is the best certifying authority for a module on vintage diving. There's a lot of work to be done on recording information about the equipment and practices of vintage diving. Yes, we have the literature of the period, diving manuals such as the Carriers' "Dive", but too little about the use of such equipment and practices in modern times. A training module may be the best way forward. An authoritative, properly researched book on vintage diving designed for readers in the new millennium is also long overdue to explain that pioneering period to the modern younger generation of divers. Most modern divers have little conception of what went on in the early days and there really isn't enough media coverage, whether print or broadcast, to satisfy any historical curiosity on their part.
I'll finish by adding another topic to the "Vintage Diver Specialty" list: early drysuits, which happen to be a research interest of mine. And if you look at period diving manuals, there will be plenty of pictures of snorkellers, not just divers with air tanks. Vintage diving is about more than regulators, crucial as they are. The basic gear, and exposure suits, of the time deserve greater prominence.
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dbg40
Senior Diver
Posts: 66
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Post by dbg40 on Jul 20, 2007 7:23:39 GMT -8
My disdain for the usual agencies is largely based on thier deliberate dislike for any gear more than a fiew years old. Again, thier bread and butter is from the shops that support the training. And those shops want to move gear, and lots of it. If thetre is to be any significant gainsin the promotion of,and training in, vintage gear (double hose regulators being the main focus) It will certainly have to come from those that collect, use, improve upon, and understand them. I do agree that there is a good chance that we as a whole will become extinct, It seems the best hope is the way it's being done now. Sites like this, with the greatest knowledge base and practical use of the gear, to collect new recruits that will be serious about what they put thier time and money into. The raw material of our small but tenacious group is at greater risk than the users of dissapearing. New divers are being made every day, but no new "old" gear. There was allready a cleansing of the old when the latest and greatest singles took over, and scores of the old doubles went into dumpsters across the nation. I wonder if it coulden't happen again if there were a run of shiny new C- card "collectors" looking for the newest in c cards. I can imagine a stock of regs going to those that will loose interest in them, then who knows where they will go, or what will happen to them. The sport needs passion, not curiosity if it is to survive round 2. but then,,I'm a carpenter, not an historian, so what do I know!
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Post by nemrod on Jul 20, 2007 14:12:11 GMT -8
I am not PadI, I don't care for abc agencies, I don't need a specialty course to learn how to do what I have done for years and get get all the knowledge I need from you guys. PadI is not going to OK on this, no octapus, no snorkel, no BC, no nothing and nothing for them to sell or promote. I seriously doubt it will happen. Until you can purchase vintage acceptable gear why does it really matter. Drop the vintage and just call it Traditional Diving, learning to dive with no crutches, no poodle jackets, no snorkels, no redundant junk and maybe it would find interest.
Actually you can purchase vintage like traditional gear, ScubaPro Jet fins, USD Atlantis mask, Hog harness minus wing, can all be purchased brand new. To bad they will not give us a traditional regulator to go along with it all.
Nemrod
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Post by diverdown1955 on Jul 20, 2007 18:11:21 GMT -8
I AGREE WITH NEMROD, NONE OF THE DOUBLE HOSE STUFF IS MAGIC. THE PRINCIPLES OF DIVING HAVE NOT CHANGED. THE EQUIPMENT HAS EVOLVED. IT PAINS MY BUTT TO MELD TECHNIQUES THAT ARE EASILY LEARNED IN POOL SESSIONS INTO A PADI COURSE.
I FLAT GUARANTEE IF YOU TAKE A GREEN NEW COMER WHO HAS NEVER USED A SINGLE HOSE UNIT AND THEY WANT TO DIVE AND BREATH UNDERWATER, NATURE WILL TAKE IT'S COURSE. IF THE DESIRE IS THERE THEY WILL FIGURE OUT THE DOUBLE HOSE; HOW TO BUDDY BREATHE, HOW TO CLEAR THE HOSES, DOFF AND DON AND HOW TO MANAGE THE MECHANICS OF GETTING YOUR NEXT BREATH SAFELY! WE DID THIS EFFECTIVELY IN THE 50'S AND 60'S.
I APPLAUD THE EARLY AGENCIES WHO STEPPED IN AND TAUGHT THE BASICS. THEN THEY WED THE EQUIPMENT SALES AND TRAVEL INTO THE MIX AND THE WHOLE PROGRAM WENT TO BEING DOLLAR DRIVEN.
NOW I FEEL THERE'S TOO MANY PUSH BUTTONS, TOO MANY BADGES.
JERRY diverdown1955
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Post by scubadiverbob on Jul 20, 2007 23:21:42 GMT -8
Well, if they don't teach recompressing a diver instead of sending to a chamber (that was taught when I got certified; I've heard people have died from being taken back under the water to treat decompression sickness) it would be ok. Maybe bring back instruction on how to breath straight off a tank without a regulator attached (I've never had to use that skill). As long as NASDS isn't allowed to teach how to buy scubapro (that was sort of a waste of money; 80% of my first openwater class was how to buy scubapro and everyones complaining about PADI). How about this ... bring back the prices !!! I paid $65.00 for my first class and that included books, and all the rental equipment, and tank fills !!!
My advanced class we did a 150 ft dive with all the stops on the way up for our deep dive. They should add that; 'cause, without the knowledge, people could get bent or get an embolism if they do a deep dive. They should include the whole dive tables instead of half the tables like most modern dive classes do. And go back to the Navy dive tables ... that's a good idea. And if people can't dive without a computer to think for them ... they don't get certified !!! (no matter how rich they are).
Ok ... I should get some replies on all that ... I'm sure.
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Post by scubadiverbob on Jul 20, 2007 23:30:31 GMT -8
And put high altitude diving back in the advanced class and all the stuff they made into "specialty classes" back into the advanced class. Nowadays they charge alot for what we learned in openwater and advanced classes by making "speciality classes" The dive industry don't need more classes to make more money off of divers. They should put double hose instruction back in the openwater class.
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Post by cnotthoff on Apr 1, 2008 18:39:11 GMT -8
A quick reply from a NAUI Instructor for 30 years.
I don't know about other agencies, but NAUI allows instructors to create custom specialty courses. I have written a course description and lesson plan for an equipment specialty course and had it approved (have since seen similar courses elsewhere). I think some of you guys would be better suited to teach a class like that than I would, but it could be done.
I don't think it is a matter of collecting cards. I look at training as a way to get together, dive, and share ideas. Oh yea, over the years I have charged a buck or two to share my ideas.
As far as figuring out things on your own rather than being trained, you need to talk with some of those old guys to see what they went through. I was lucky enough to meet some of the pioneers when I received my instructor rating. Damn, now that I think of it, you can't talk to the guys I knew. It wasn't the dangers of diving that did them in, it was just time.
I certainly agree about the direction scuba training has taken. I teach very few classes now, and only to people who agree not to whine. Those of you who think desire is enough to get you through are more than likely what I call dehydrated divers, just add water. I've certified many but never claim to have taught them. The training most instructors provide has been invaluable in keeping our sport as safe as it is.
Bob, I've always had altitude diving in my advanced class. It gives me the chance to share more about decompression theory (a subject I seem to find more fascinating than my students do) and lake/muck diving technique (techniques that keep divers from trashing coral reefs as well). Hold on to that NASDS card. They went under in the 90's.
When I started, I thought this would be a "quick reply". Oh well, although I am not a true vintage diver. I seem to be a vintage instructor. Getting a little moldy around the edges.
Good Dives,
Charlie
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Post by SeaRat on Apr 1, 2008 20:26:35 GMT -8
Charlie,
I'm an ex-NAUI instructor, and have written NAUI about getting back into instruction without a reply from them. Who should I contact about that.
Concerning the vintage diving course, let me think on that a while. I would (just off the top of my head), go with a swim test from the old days, when divers needed to know how to function in the water before diving. Then go through the basics of snorkeling, and finally to scuba. But let me think more about it now.
John
ex-NAUI #2710
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Post by nemrod on Apr 2, 2008 13:27:23 GMT -8
When we talk about a specialty course for vintage to NAUI or even the evil PadI they don't have a single clue as to what is being said. They think vintage is like last year. When you explain to them that vintage EQUIPMENT diving is straight from the old New Science of Skin and Scuba they still have not a clue. Then when you explain that BCs are not used, spgs are rarely used, spring straps are NOT vintage equipment and pink framed masks with snorkels with anti gravity are NOT acceptable for vintage use and neither are safe seconds, octopuses, Spare Airs or computers etc. their eyes slowly glaze over and their mind closes off. You will never see this accepted and even if it is insurance requirments at most resorts, charter boats etc will not care a flip.
Thus my venture into minimalistic diving, certain modern equipemnt is virtually invisible in a functional sense and can be used while still providing the feel of vintage if not the look and satisfying most requirments.
But, yes, I think an old pro like SeaRat should write a course, a physically demanding and skill intensive course that concentrates on basics of vintage EQUIPMENT diving straight from the NSSSD.
I have been working on a PowerPoint but it is just in the beginning.
Of course, within NAVED, we have already appointed ourselves as Master Vintage Divers.
Nem
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wd8cdh
Regular Diver
Posts: 35
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Post by wd8cdh on Apr 4, 2008 5:19:02 GMT -8
Hi Nem,
I agree with all of that except for the Safe Second/octopus. I was using that and pony tanks more than 35 years ago.
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Post by SeaRat on Apr 4, 2008 6:49:04 GMT -8
The use of safe seconds--octopus regulators was initiated by the cave divers in the early 1970s. I brought the octopus into my gear after diving on the Warm Mineral Springs Underwater Archeological Project in 1973. Prior to that, my "safe second" was the surface. When in an "overhead environment" (a term that is not vintage), then the safe second is necessary. I also brought the duel post manifold after this project into my gear. But I find myself not using the second post a lot.
As a matter of fact, I'm now again trying to get my Cobra computer going again. It functions, but I have been using my vintage SPGs for the last couple of years, and I cannot now download from the Cobra (probably some slight corrosion on the terminals--my next try to get it going again).
John
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Post by luis on Apr 4, 2008 7:08:19 GMT -8
The picture below is from the 1964 or 1965 ice diving season in Antarctica. Notice the safe second/ octopus on Michael A. deCamp, the diver on the left. I also had a chance to see a presentation from the Eastern Divers Association, a group of very hard core wreck divers from New Jersey and New York, where I saw many pictures from the mid 60’s of divers using safe seconds and pony bottles (with their double hose regulators). The pony bottles looked like converted oxygen bottles strapped on the back of their doubles. I have heard the claim that cave divers invented the safe second, but it doesn’t seem to be the case. I will try to post some more pictures later.
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Post by SeaRat on Apr 4, 2008 9:00:37 GMT -8
Luis, Great photo, and I see that it came from this publication of diving in Antarctica: repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1063&context=sioBut this is the only photo that shows a safe second in that publication. I don't know exactly where the complete concept of the octopus regulator, or safe second, originated. I do know that I had not used it until getting exposed to it at the Warm Mineral Springs Underwater Archeological Project. I think I may also have seen it from the Altitude Diving Conferenec I attended around the same time at Lake Tahoe. I may look at my references concerning it later this weekend. Great photos are being posted by Nemrod on other threads. Let's keep up the posting of these photos. John
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