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Post by puff on May 26, 2010 8:49:23 GMT -8
Hi John, very interesting harness you have! The brass buckles are quite similar to the rest of military 60's equipment (m56 butt pack, harness...). Your quick release is interesting too and I can't resist to ask myself why they don't try to adopt the military Lightweight Rucksack and Tropical Rucksack's quick release system appear in the mid 60's? Your quick release system is ingenious but is it really safe with the heavy weight of the two tanks?
Could I ask you how many time did you spent in the Navy Diving School for your PJ's formation?
I've another question about dive mask. In my actual knowledges I know that US.Divers civil mask have been used during the 60's and early 70's in the Navy. But does the Navy order special Non Magnetic components for these masks to US.divers?
I know it's a lot of questions but I'm really curious! ;o) Puff
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Post by SeaRat on May 28, 2010 12:48:15 GMT -8
Hi John, very interesting harness you have! The brass buckles are quite similar to the rest of military 60's equipment (m56 butt pack, harness...). Your quick release is interesting too and I can't resist to ask myself why they don't try to adopt the military Lightweight Rucksack and Tropical Rucksack's quick release system appear in the mid 60's? Your quick release system is ingenious but is it really safe with the heavy weight of the two tanks? Could I ask you how many time did you spent in the Navy Diving School for your PJ's formation? I've another question about dive mask. In my actual knowledges I know that US.Divers civil mask have been used during the 60's and early 70's in the Navy. But does the Navy order special Non Magnetic components for these masks to US.divers? I know it's a lot of questions but I'm really curious! ;o) Puff Puff, Good questions--and I don't have much of an answer. I am not familiar with the Rucksacks you describe, and don't know about their quick release buckles. I do know that the military harness is very, very tough, and will not come apart with the weight of the tanks, as that simply tightens the double D-ring "knot" and that the nylon harness has a very high tensile strength. I do know that in the early 1950s there were people that took Army rucksacks and made scuba harnesses out of them--the first backpacks, actually. This was described in detail in the book, Dive, the complete book of skin diving in the early 1960s. When I get some time, I'll post the pictures that they put into the book. When I went through Pararescue training in 1967, we went to a number of different schools. We had the "Basic Survival" school in Washington state, Medical School at Shepherd AFB, Texas, US Army Mountain Ranger School in Georgia, Jungle Survival school in Panama, Canal Zone; Jump School at Ft. Benning, Georgia, and the U.S. Naval School for Underwater Swimmers in Key West, Florida. We then went through "Transition School" where we put all that together at Eglin AFB, Florida. The scuba school was a three-week school when I attended it--very intense three weeks. We were issued commercial dive masks, usually the old oval kind, but in the USAF we could substitute our own equipment if we liked it better. We did not have any special masks at the US Naval School for Underwater Swimmers. But the UDT people went through this school before going on for more specialized training--rebreathers, etc., and there got to use different equipment. They probably did not use a mask with a stainless steel ring when they were doing EOD work. John
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Post by puff on May 30, 2010 14:32:20 GMT -8
Thanks a lot John for these informations! The military rucksack made for nylon material was the lightweight rucksack with an aluminum frame. It is probably the frame you talk about. The frame is very light and it was probably easy to fix tanks on it. Front Back And the quick release system same as use in Tropical Rucksack appear in 1967 (similar to lightweight rucksack but without frame) : You just have to lift the dot and pull up the sling to have the harm free and rotate the frame front of you. This system appear in 1962 that's why I ask myself why a similar one don't appear in Navy harness system. I'm sorry it's a little far from the primary subject of this forum. Hope you forgive me guys and forgive my non accurate english spoken too! ;o)
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Post by nikeajax on May 31, 2010 18:00:54 GMT -8
Hey Puff, no apologies needed, as you're right-on-target with your questions-and answers! With the images that both you and John have posted, it's getting pretty clear as to the design: thanks! Jaybird
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Post by puff on Jun 4, 2010 10:02:35 GMT -8
Thanks Jaybird! This item is just a little bit out of subject but hope to learn something interesting about the possible use of this frame during the 60's era. I was firstly a collector before became a diver that's why I'm interested by these Navy and military consideration. Cheers! Puff
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Post by SeaRat on Jun 4, 2010 18:50:17 GMT -8
Puff,
It's not that I haven't been thinking about what you posted, but I haven't had time to develop it yet. Yes, those types of harnesses were used for scuba. I'll show you later some drawings about that. More later as I get some time...
John
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Post by puff on Jun 5, 2010 11:41:25 GMT -8
Hi John, I was sure we had talk about the same thing! ;o) Hope to see your drawings soon... Thanks!
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Post by SeaRat on Jun 6, 2010 16:43:00 GMT -8
Puff, Here are the pages from Rick and Barbara Carrier's book, dive, the complete book of skin diving[/B], Wilfred Funk, Inc., New York, 1957. It describes using the WWII or Korea rucksacks for a scuba harness. Please note that they describe a more elaborate quick release for these harnesses than the newer Military double D-ring harness described here. But upon looking at the current military rucksacks, I don't think that their harness system qualifies as a quick release either. A lot of these have the nylon webbing tied in a knot to ensure that they cannot got out of the buckle. I cannot see whether this is true on your rucksack, but if so there would be no release . The only way this buckle system could qualify is if the webbing formed the quick-release loop, and came back out the buckle. Otherwise, you may want to do something like the Carriers described in this book. John PS--this description appears in the first edition of this book, but was dropped from the second edition (1973).
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Post by puff on Jun 7, 2010 11:55:19 GMT -8
Wow, amazing! The frame came from M-1941 or M1949 (second issue) Mountain bag, used firstly during WW2 then Korea and Vietnam (by special forces in early 60's and sometimes infantry men). The M-1941 frame is made of steel and not really advisable to swim on salt water. I don't know if the M-1949 frame is made of steel or aluminum? This my M-1941 bag buy on ebay 5 years ago. I've finally find another way to use it now! But to find the white rubber material and grommets was not an easy party! ;o) About 'Dive' I've order a copy of this book writing by Rick & Barbara Carrier (1956 edition) of on ebay and just wait for. Hope to read it soon! Many thanks my friend for this page scan!
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Post by SeaRat on Jun 7, 2010 20:08:55 GMT -8
Puff, Thanks for the photos of the rucksacks. Wow, that is really close, isn't it, to the drawing (actually vice-versa). Take a look at the credits for the photo. The female diver in the photo is Jane Russell. I don't know the movie, but this was one of the early dive films. It also starred some well-know male stars, whom I recognize but cannot name. Here is page 164 of that book: So, here's my challenge, to you and to Jaybird (who likes old diving flicks) or anyone else who likes the challenge--who are the stars, and what was the movie's title? John
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Post by nikeajax on Jun 8, 2010 8:51:59 GMT -8
John, I'm pretty sure it called, "Underwater!" 1955, an RKO production. It also had Richard Egan. It's remembered because of this song apparently: www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgfFyQIPhlIThanks IMDB! www.imdb.com/title/tt0048764/They don't have it on Netflix, but I did find, a Sea Hunt knock off called, "Assignment Underwater", from 1960, do you remember this show?!?!?! Oooooh , can't wait to watch it! Jaybird
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2010 14:23:32 GMT -8
The diver with the black mustache is Gilbert Roland I think.......the other looks like a young Egan
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Post by duckbill on Jun 9, 2010 10:15:44 GMT -8
Please tell me she's not negotiating that ladder in flippers!
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Post by SeaRat on Jun 9, 2010 10:40:39 GMT -8
Please tell me she's not negotiating that ladder in flippers! She surely was, but they are Churchill fins. I found out last weekend during a dive that Churchill fins are still available, and are being use by water rescue units. They do this in part because they can walk in Churchills, whereas with other fins that is a problem. But in the early days, many divers used these kind of fins (including the Cousteau teams) and walked up ladders with their fins on. Owen Churchill originally designed the fins to be able to walk on land, and also thay had that hole in the bottom with the raised area around it to act as a suction device on surfboards. That feature is in the original patent description, as I recall. marine-rescue.com/catalog/catalog.php?item=54&catid=11&ret=catalog.php%3Fcategory%3D11Jaybird, I followed your links, and found out the Jane Russel is still around and in her 90s! With your abilities and following in the film area, would it be possible for you to try to make contact with Ms. Russell to get her opinions and observations on the filming of "Underwater!"? That would really be interesting. John
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Post by puff on Jun 10, 2010 7:04:28 GMT -8
I'm back after my computer hard drive pass out... ;o( Too late to play with you about this movie but you guys are more qualified than me to play the game! ;o) About Churchill fins I think they never stop the brand since the 50's. These fins are well appreciate by body borders since the early 90's. My first pair of fins I've bought to use with my body board was Churchill's fins. I've seen a picture of Navy diver using this type of fins but can't find it in my archives... This is a 50's model :
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