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Fins
Oct 29, 2012 13:38:32 GMT -8
Post by nikeajax on Oct 29, 2012 13:38:32 GMT -8
EXCELLENT: this is one of those times I like to be wrong ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) I was talking to my wife, who is a "Master Swimmer", and she said that when you get tired swimming, "Stop using your legs!" (let them rest while your upper body does the work) She's always telling me my kick is way too strong for not having a great core, GRRR! She pointed out to me also that if your core isn't strong enough, your tendency is to not hold your lower back in the right position resulting in dumb things like pinched nerves and tendonitis in really dumb places. My physical therapist was telling me that the older people get, the weaker their core has a tendency to become, which is why a lot of senior-citizens fall! Something else to look at is your stroke, is it efficient? You can probably find a book or a video to help you with that: I only mention this because a lot of people tend to do what I call, "Trying to punish the water", beating, splashing, thrashing and pounding your arms as they enter the water, excellent cardio, terrible for endurance though! I only mention this as it's one of those "boot camp" methods that never gets pointed out as not a good way to do things... I hope this was a little help? Jaybird
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Fins
Oct 29, 2012 17:35:52 GMT -8
Post by nemrod on Oct 29, 2012 17:35:52 GMT -8
Well, I thought fin swimming was for fins, ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) , very interesting that a crawl stroke is used. Hmmph, real swimmers do not use aids like fins ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) . Flippers are for those silly skindivers. I also swim Masters, or at least did until I broke my femur. But I still swim 3 to 7 miles per week, usually at about a 30 minute pace per mile, that is 2 MPH. That is a fairly leisurely pace. I can go faster, a lot faster and can probably still go below 20 minutes to a mile but it would hurt. My swim speeds are permanently reduced from the broken leg and associated results ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) . The arms make the majority of propulsion in a crawl. Nowadays I see coaches are back in the discussion of how to swim a crawl stroke. There are the paddle wheelers and the propellers. I am in the propeller camp. The paddle wheelers use a longer surface reach and tend to make a straighter arm pull with a deep catch. The propellers use a circuitous, figure eight pull that has the hands and arms being thrust in the water just forward of the head. The hands are pushed forward and outward to create lift and then brought back in a sweeping series of sculling motions. For example: www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRkZTclaEsA
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Fins
Oct 29, 2012 20:30:38 GMT -8
Post by duckbill on Oct 29, 2012 20:30:38 GMT -8
.......anyway, the pain is in my hip and left leg, not the lower back......... Just so you know, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. The worst pain I have ever had to endure was my whole left leg and foot for about three weeks kneeling by my bed before being carted to emergency, and that was due to a spinal problem (bulged discs with inflamation pinching my nerves). Keeping inflamation under control is a constant vigil (the discs will always be bulged, and getting more so with time). Remember, pain is weakness leaving the body. LOL! ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) I just learned that is a new popular saying in the Corps. What a crock! "The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war" made a lot more sense. I guess that's old school now. My first scuba flippers were Power Planas. I used them until I discovered Jetfins. I don't miss the leg cramps.
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Fins
Oct 29, 2012 21:19:08 GMT -8
Post by SeaRat on Oct 29, 2012 21:19:08 GMT -8
John Interesting that you would detail how swim fining is done......not knowing the name of this type of sport, I have been swim fining since June at the local gym pool, trying to just get back into shape. I started just swimming on my back with some short fins with split blades, I purchased at Academys Sporting Goods. Was doing 20 laps in a 50 yard pool in about 30 minutes on my back. Switched to mask and snorkle for about a month. I was working just for my cardio and leg muscles but strained my left hip and thigh muscles so I slowed down. Both methods I found it difficult to push the fins under as they floated. I think this is what caused my injury. Got bored so I tried swimming under water holding my breath and worked up to 10 lengths for about a month, then got even more bored and tried to use my Power Plana's I've had the past 26 years. Really pulled the muscles in my left hip and upset my left sciatic nerve...been down since..........3 weeks........ I was hoping to get back into reasonable shape for my wife and my trip to Peru this Christmas......was planning to do some diving........still hope I can as I am slowly healing......... So..........any suggestions on how to approach this again without injuring my 63 year old self? OlMossback, I have a couple of suggestions. First, the fins. You might either go back to the split fins you bought, or you might want to make your Power Plana fins into "split" fins or my scoop fins. You can do that by drilling a hole just below the foot pocket about 1/4 to 1/2 inch in diameter, then splitting the fin blade down the center to the hole. I have done this, and compared it to the original fin and my scoop fins, and it comes in between the two in efficiency and has less stress on the leg. The problem with the plana fins is the center "dead" area. This center portion of the fin does not contribute to forward "push", but does cause the fin to be much harder to move through the water. Here is a photo of the three fins. ![](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/PlanaPlusExperiment.jpg) Here is how the scoop fin design is made: ![](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/PlanaPlusScoop-back.jpg) The open heel Plana fins can be modified in a similar manner. ![](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/PlanaAvantiScoop.jpg) ![](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/BackofAvantiScoop.jpg) Years ago I did this force vector analysis of fins with and without the scoop fin modification. ![](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/FinVectorAnalysis.jpg) Note that in the center of the regular fin, there is that "dead" area which does not have a backward force vector. John
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Fins
Oct 30, 2012 10:13:51 GMT -8
Post by nikeajax on Oct 30, 2012 10:13:51 GMT -8
Nem, I thought it was Finn-swimming ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) : ![](http://www.topnews.in/files/Finland-Map-Flag.jpg) It's funny you mentioned the new and old style strokes in swimming: I think the newer style is way harder on the rotator-cuff, but I've heard the older style is easier to blow out your shoulder if you don't know what you're doing. I've heard in the old style, you imagine your hands going around the shape of a Coke-bottle... Jaybird
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Fins
Oct 30, 2012 11:07:50 GMT -8
Post by SeaRat on Oct 30, 2012 11:07:50 GMT -8
Nem, I thought it was Finn-swimming ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) : ![](http://www.topnews.in/files/Finland-Map-Flag.jpg) It's funny you mentioned the new and old style strokes in swimming: I think the newer style is way harder on the rotator-cuff, but I've heard the older style is easier to blow out your shoulder if you don't know what you're doing. I've heard in the old style, you imagine your hands going around the shape of a Coke-bottle... Jaybird Actually, Finland is quite into finswimming. www.youtube.com/http://finswimming.cjb.net/watch?v=Z59RZP_rpT4How about 200 meters in 1:26.62? Nem, thanks for the link to the swimming technique. I'm probably going to be doing some longer-distance swimming and finswimming this fall. Concerning either technique for pulling causing injury, this again is a matter of conditioning and technique. Starting out too fast is a problem. But swimming is much nicer to the body than is running or some other kinds of exercise. If you want to see how the long bi-fins work in practice, take a look at this freediving video: www.youtube.com/channels?feature=feed-promoNote that the fins are very flexible, and form an "S" shape pattern to them. That way, they push the water more effectively than a stiffer, shorter blade. The long flexible blade also tends to overcome the deficiency of many shorter fins, by somewhat eliminating the "dead area" of the blabe. The Mares plana fins (thermoplastic) seem also to be made for warmer water, as they get noticeably stiffer in cold water. The Mares Plana Excel still has quite a dead area on the upstroke, which I may detail later. They (Mares) has a new fin called the "Wave" which I have not seen or evaluated yet, but may be more like the scoop concept. www.mares.com/products/fins/open-heel/wave/242/?region=euJohn
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Fins
Nov 2, 2012 14:43:37 GMT -8
Post by SeaRat on Nov 2, 2012 14:43:37 GMT -8
I took my Plana Concorde fins into the pool this morning, and they performed very well. I haven't used them for years, and needed the fin keepers to be able to wear them as the heel of one fin had split. One of the guys in the lane next to me said, "Those are really long fins!" He had some split fins he had cut down for his practices. He was amazed that I was doing flip turns with them, but that really is easy to do as the fins stay out of the water during the flip turn. I'll get some photo closeups of them soon.
One thing I noticed is that I needed to adjust my kick as the longer fins required a bit different kick than the shorter ones. I used my Plana Graphite that had been modified to be split fins (manually split the fins like I described above). I found the Plana Concorde to be a slightly better fin, but did not do anything like counting kicks or something like that. Next time...
John
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Fins
Nov 8, 2012 17:06:06 GMT -8
Post by nemrod on Nov 8, 2012 17:06:06 GMT -8
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Fins
Nov 8, 2012 23:59:12 GMT -8
Post by duckbill on Nov 8, 2012 23:59:12 GMT -8
![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) Took me a second to figure it out. John, I think you accidentally made your post by editing Nemrod's post using your moderator's privilege.
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Fins
Nov 9, 2012 8:17:09 GMT -8
Post by SeaRat on Nov 9, 2012 8:17:09 GMT -8
OOPS! I'll fix that... ;D
Thanks
Here's what I wanted to say:
From their website: [/B][/Quote]
It looks like a scoop fin to me.
John
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Fins
Nov 9, 2012 21:06:31 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2012 21:06:31 GMT -8
Well Duckbill, you were right, my doctor told me that because my back is taking so long to heal, he says I have a bludging disk. Anyway, with proper treatment, decompression of the spine treatments, etc.......it'll heal up in a few weeks if I take proper care. And it is.....not so much pain now....only comes and goes occasionally.
John, my Power Plana's I've had for 26 years....they are not like the later ones with the flexible blade and black rubber slots..........like the quatro planas, (I had a pair of those I took to Brazil and they were useless in a 3 knot current.) Mine are more like a a piece of 1/8th inch plywood....slightly flexible but not by much....white translucent PU.........in the flower gardens in 05 I did notice they tended to roll under hard effort...(chasing that turtle).....I guess that dead area in the center was washing off the sides........don't know really, but they do meet my needs, for the most part..........till I used them in the pool three weeks ago........
Been wanting to replace them with the new F1's........but haven't had a good justification for the buy yet.
nikeajax........yeah........my core is soft.......one of the things I going to correct.........loosing weight now as I get well..........
Mossback
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Fins
Nov 10, 2012 10:35:09 GMT -8
Post by nikeajax on Nov 10, 2012 10:35:09 GMT -8
Mossback, I thought your symptoms sounded way too familiar not to be a disc! Since it is a disc, work your core gradually, START SLOWLY! It's easy to make things worse, really easy.
Back to fins: so y'all seem to hate the USD Rocket Fins, why is this? I haven't used mine, way too big fer me, is it because they're too stiff?
Jaybird
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Fins
Nov 13, 2012 14:42:46 GMT -8
Post by SeaRat on Nov 13, 2012 14:42:46 GMT -8
Well Duckbill, you were right, my doctor told me that because my back is taking so long to heal, he says I have a bludging disk. Anyway, with proper treatment, decompression of the spine treatments, etc.......it'll heal up in a few weeks if I take proper care. And it is.....not so much pain now....only comes and goes occasionally. John, my Power Plana's I've had for 26 years....they are not like the later ones with the flexible blade and black rubber slots..........like the quatro planas, (I had a pair of those I took to Brazil and they were useless in a 3 knot current.) Mine are more like a a piece of 1/8th inch plywood....slightly flexible but not by much....white translucent PU.........in the flower gardens in 05 I did notice they tended to roll under hard effort...(chasing that turtle).....I guess that dead area in the center was washing off the sides........don't know really, but they do meet my needs, for the most part..........till I used them in the pool three weeks ago........ Been wanting to replace them with the new F1's........but haven't had a good justification for the buy yet. nikeajax........yeah........my core is soft.......one of the things I going to correct.........loosing weight now as I get well.......... Mossback Mossback, First, I hope your back gets better soon. I hear that most of us will go to our Maker with a bulged disc or two. I hope yours becomes asymptomatic soon! Second, about your Power Plana fins. They probably look like these: ![](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/ClearLakePetrifiedTree.jpg) The simpliest thing you can do is to make them into split fins by simply drilling a hole near the toe, and then splitting the fin laterally to the point. By drilling the hole, you prevent the blade from splitting further when in use. It looks like this (the center fin): ![](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/PlanaPlusExperiment.jpg) This does not hurt the power output, but does make it easier on your body. Or, you could make scoop fins out of them. You can look at the photos above to see how that was accomplished. You need a sheet of flat material (rubber sheet, poly or something like rubberized nylon), then cut it so it is tight at the top, and has enough material at the bottom to form a semicircle when it is in place. The material you cut out of the fin (leave about 1/2 to 3/4 inch on the sides) can be used to make the backing of the fins. You can use either rivets or screws to tie it on, with ShoeGoo under to hold it together. One of my earliest models from 1970 shows it best: ![](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/VikingMod-3.jpg) Or, you can buy a new pair of fins. I'm very curious about those Aquabiotic fins that Nemrod linked to above. I'll have more on fin performance data from a study I did in 2010 later. John
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Fins
Nov 13, 2012 18:03:32 GMT -8
Post by SeaRat on Nov 13, 2012 18:03:32 GMT -8
Here are the fin trials I told you about. These are from the full-foot Plana fins pictured above (the three sets in the previous post). They are exactly the same fin, but one is an unmodified original, one is split, but keeping the exact same blade area, and the other is modified for the "scoop fin" concept. John Attachments:![](//storage.proboards.com/153815/thumbnailer/EN0oWz4Ivw92zJ9gA7qM.jpg)
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Fins
Nov 13, 2012 18:05:58 GMT -8
Post by SeaRat on Nov 13, 2012 18:05:58 GMT -8
Here is my fin collection again. John Attachments:![](//storage.proboards.com/153815/thumbnailer/vZOeyNb2fMPgsbFH5CjQ.jpg)
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