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Post by crabbyjim on Jan 19, 2018 6:24:43 GMT -8
Hello all!
I have a set of tanks that were manufactured in 1952. They are connected by a USD manifold with 1/2 inch valves and connected to the tanks with brass bushings. I took them in for a hydro and they passed but the manifold leaks at the point that the valve connects to the bushing on one tank and where the bushing meets the tank on the other when the tank pressure exceeds 300 psi. My local shop can't budge the bushings! They have the proper equipment and lots of muscle but this is they message I got from them:
"We have tried to get the brass inserts out with no luck. When we put a box wrench on it as we start to apply pressure it appears the brass will want to strip out before the insert comes loose. We would like to know what you want to do with them. Please advise."
What are my options? Can I replace the bushings? If I can get the bushings out can I replace the manifold? Recommendations please.
Thanking you in advance, I remain,
Crabby Jim
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Post by nikeajax on Jan 19, 2018 8:10:19 GMT -8
Crabby, don't quote me on this one, but I'm pretty danged sure you can get new bushings. As for their removal: cut them out! A drill, hammer and chisel are my weapons of choice for such an engagement in warfare! JB
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Post by SeaRat on Jan 19, 2018 8:54:10 GMT -8
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Post by crabbyjim on Jan 19, 2018 9:25:58 GMT -8
Thanks John. I saw those adds and I think I’ll try to get that manifold and get rid of the bushings. The image of Jbird going at them with hammers and tongs is frightening.
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Post by cnotthoff on Jan 19, 2018 9:51:11 GMT -8
Jim,
Good luck getting the brass out. All the previous suggestions are a good place to start. Many mechanics will take a torch to stubborn bolts. DON'T HEAT HIGH PRESSURE CYLINDERS. But you knew that.
I'm curious about what they mean by "appears the brass will want to strip out before the insert comes loose" . A box or adjustable wrench can round-off the flats of a seized insert. Once that sucker is round, it is very much like a pipe. A BFPW (big effing pipe wrench) will grab that insert and tear it up. Since you've decided not to reuse the inserts, you can start with the BFPW. If that fails, you're back to the drilling and teasing approach.
Once you get those out, I have a couple of new-old-stock high pressure steel inserts. I'll be down in Monterey in late January or early February. I can bring them then.
Good Dives, Charlie
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Post by nikeajax on Jan 19, 2018 10:42:05 GMT -8
Crabby, in order to do this you need to know what you're doing, but I've seen this done by professional mechanics on cars worth well over $250K I needed to use this method on my C3 Clipper: And no, I ain't volunteering nobuddy, but we have a mutual friend who could probably make short work of it JB
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Post by vance on Jan 19, 2018 12:00:46 GMT -8
Hey Crabster, Whatever you do, don't buy those ugly bushings on eBait for the astronomical and hideous price they're asking. Those have been on there for a LOOOOONG time, and for the two reasons I mentioned above.
Jim Steele says the inserts available at plumbing stores work fine. I'll ask him if he means brass or steel. But the point is moot since Charlie got you covered.
I agree with the bfw, which I have one of if you need it. I have released inserts on waste outlet cast iron fittings by sawing partly through the insert across the threads and then banging on them with a chisel or whatever. This loosens them enough to get them turning.
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Post by crabbyjim on Jan 19, 2018 14:46:06 GMT -8
I have an update on the bushings: the shop was just being cautious as the brass was rounding a little. I went over this morning, discussed options and put on a bigger wrench with a long pipe on the end. It came right off.
Now I have another issue. In order to access the valve on the reserve side, the tech removed the j valve, reassembled the manifold and reattached the j valve. Now the j valve is on when it is in the off position and vice versa. Ideas?
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Post by duckbill on Jan 19, 2018 14:46:51 GMT -8
I'm curious about what they mean by "appears the brass will want to strip out before the insert comes loose" . I'm guessing they meant the top would shear off from the threaded portion in the cylinder. Personally, I would use a six point socket and breaker bar in this instance. If it shears off with full hex contact and even torque, then it was just meant to be. I don't know if an impact wrench would help get it started, or just shear it off. Have fun!
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Post by crabbyjim on Jan 19, 2018 14:49:33 GMT -8
Hey Crabster, Whatever you do, don't buy those ugly bushings on eBait for the astronomical and hideous price they're asking. Those have been on there for a LOOOOONG time, and for the two reasons I mentioned above. Jim Steele says the inserts available at plumbing stores work fine. I'll ask him if he means brass or steel. But the point is moot since Charlie got you covered. I agree with the bfw, which I have one of if you need it. I have released inserts on waste outlet cast iron fittings by sawing partly through the insert across the threads and then banging on them with a chisel or whatever. This loosens them enough to get them turning. Those are ugly and I have seen new ones on line for 5 or 6 dollars each. The big wrench and pipe did the job and the shop was just being extra careful. No cutting, hammering or torching necessary. Sorry J.
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Post by crabbyjim on Jan 19, 2018 14:51:01 GMT -8
I'm curious about what they mean by "appears the brass will want to strip out before the insert comes loose" . I'm guessing they meant the top would shear off from the threaded portion in the cylinder. Personally, I would use a six point socket and breaker bar in this instance. If it shears off with full hex contact and even torque, then it was just meant to be. I don't know if an impact wrench would help get it started, or just shear it off. Have fun! The shop was just exercising caution. With a bigger wrench they came right off.
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Post by crabbyjim on Jan 19, 2018 14:55:38 GMT -8
Jim, Good luck getting the brass out. All the previous suggestions are a good place to start. Many mechanics will take a torch to stubborn bolts. DON'T HEAT HIGH PRESSURE CYLINDERS. But you knew that. I'm curious about what they mean by "appears the brass will want to strip out before the insert comes loose" . A box or adjustable wrench can round-off the flats of a seized insert. Once that sucker is round, it is very much like a pipe. A BFPW (big effing pipe wrench) will grab that insert and tear it up. Since you've decided not to reuse the inserts, you can start with the BFPW. If that fails, you're back to the drilling and teasing approach. Once you get those out, I have a couple of new-old-stock high pressure steel inserts. I'll be down in Monterey in late January or early February. I can bring them then. Good Dives, Charlie Thanks Charlie. If you don’t mind, please bring the steel bushings on your next trip. What do you think of replacing the whole manifold?
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Post by SeaRat on Jan 19, 2018 15:55:13 GMT -8
I have an update on the bushings: the shop was just being cautious as the brass was rounding a little. I went over this morning, discussed options and put on a bigger wrench with a long pipe on the end. It came right off.
Now I have another issue. In order to access the valve on the reserve side, the tech removed the j valve, reassembled the manifold and reattached the j valve. Now the j valve is on when it is in the off position and vice versa. Ideas? I'm assuming that the valve is not in the tank yet. Turn the valve on at the top, and blow through the reserve side to see whether it is open or shut. Then orient the J-valve lever according to whether it is actually on or off. It simply is a matter of taking that part off (one nut, as I recall), and re-orienting the lever. However, if that doesn't work, then maybe you have to take the entire outside portion off, and re-orient the valve. Again, you can tell which is which by blowing through it. If you can get air through it, it is open (assuming the main valve is open). If you cannot, it is closed. Then put the valve together with that orientation correct for the lever. Now, I would not have the tech put the valve or bushing back into the tank unless they are very familiar with the 1/2 inch tapered threads, and the use of Teflon tape to do so. You have to coat the valve with the Teflon tape (and I forget which way, clockwise or counter-clockwise, but it must be so that when threaded, it tends to keep the tape in place rather than going against it). Then, that bushing and later the valve need to be put in very, very tightly in order not to leak. I would not use anything other than Teflon tape for this, as that causes the problem you just had, of removal. John
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Post by crabbyjim on Jan 19, 2018 16:47:52 GMT -8
Everything is back together with teflon tape. The tanks and manifold are currently in a water tank in the backyard with a pressure gauge attached. Tank pressure is 1800 psi with no bubbles. Huzzah!
The j valve is a source of puzzlement though. On is off and off is on. I an looking for a diagram of a pre-1960, USD, 1/2 inch pipe thread manifold. More news as it happens.
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Post by vance on Jan 19, 2018 16:52:51 GMT -8
Even if the manifold is on, just remove the slotted round nut and the lever. Turn the valve one click and reassemble. No air will escape or any other scary thing. Easy-peasy. It's a rotating valve: one click on, one click off, one click on, etc.
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