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Post by pabloo on Jan 16, 2024 3:41:14 GMT -8
Hello David If Karina mentions that it's probably true. The point is that every big producing company that time has few subcontractors which made items for them sometime without anty name or brand on it. I bought my MURENA set around 1990 and as remember that mask+snorkel were together and fins were separate...so it's possible that fins were produced by Hewea, mask and snorkel by by Zielonka Crafts. I found photo on the book with description that fins: a - no name, b - Raja , c - Komandoskie were manufactured by Stomil rubber goods plant in Grudziądz...it means that they could be produced also by any Stomil subcontractor Are you interested opinion of "practical" using of that equipment or you want to collect them...let me know. Regards Dave. Pawel
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Post by DavidRitchieWilson on Jan 16, 2024 9:45:10 GMT -8
Hello David If Karina mentions that it's probably true. The point is that every big producing company that time has few subcontractors which made items for them sometime without anty name or brand on it. I bought my MURENA set around 1990 and as remember that mask+snorkel were together and fins were separate...so it's possible that fins were produced by Hewea, mask and snorkel by by Zielonka Crafts. I found photo on the book with description that fins: a - no name, b - Raja , c - Komandoskie were manufactured by Stomil rubber goods plant in Grudziądz...it means that they could be produced also by any Stomil subcontractor Are you interested opinion of "practical" using of that equipment or you want to collect them...let me know. Regards Dave. Pawel I'm very grateful for that information, Pawel. What I am trying to do is to establish which manufacturer makes which product. I fully understand how this may not always be easy to do in practice. I'd also be interested in finding out what your verdict is on each of the components of the Murena set, whether each functioned as it should and whether each was comfortable to use. Thanks again. David
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Post by pabloo on Jan 17, 2024 5:53:22 GMT -8
The history of Polish diving apparatus part 1 In the post-war years, as a result of interest under water exploration, there was a demand for diving equipment from research institutions, rescue services, the military and individual users. Unfortunately, in the countries of the "socialist bloc" to which Poland belonged, the possibility of purchasing this type of equipment was limited to orders for scientific institutions such as the Polish Academy of Sciences or the Department of Oceanography of the Maritime Institute. Mainly French-made equipment was used, but technical literature, trained specialists and diving equipment repair centers were lacking. For this reason in 1956, engineers Jan Hiszpański and Marian Grimm were working on a new product for underwater experiments based on scuba gear of Jacques Cousteau. They constructed the first Polish diving regulator "NEPTUN" which was officially accepted for production and Poland was the first of the socialist countries to launch the production of its own diving apparatus in 1957 at ZPM in Gdańsk. ZPM Gdańsk, Poland ZPM - Precision Engineering Manufacturer , Gdansk - city in Poland Manufacturer of analytical and technical scales, nautical logs, magnetic compasses, land & diving breathing apparatus, knitting machines. In 1965, 40% of ZMP production was exported to 30 countries, and at that time it was the one of 40 Polish manufacturer in the country selected (by communistic government) for export production. Unluckily the lack of quality materials, subcontractors and the long waiting period for obtaining production permits meant that approximately 1500 of devices was produced. Despite these problems "NEPTUN" was used widely by the Navy, Ship Rescue, Marine Station of the Polish Academy of Sciences, diving clubs, and others. Despite of that diving enthusiasts created well-functioning regulators regardless of factory production. "MACZEK" apparatus Designer & Manufacturer: Wiesław Maczek, Kraków, Poland Time of production: 1954 , after cave diving experience in 1956-58 designers Wiesław Maczek, Oleg Czyżewski, Piotr Wall worked to improve equipment to prevent cold cave fusion. Several corrections have been made, including covers on the controller connectors. In 1960/61 about 30 cameras were produced and divided into the entire group.
Construction: double hose without one - way valves, one-stage, DOWN-stream (thanks for Rainer:) unbalanced, exhaust - mushroom type on the end of hose - look at the picture. Connection: DIN R 5/8”, Set: 1-2 x 8L 150 atm carbon steel cylinder , cave diving apparatus consist 4 air cylinders horizontally at the back
"SUCHY" apparatus Information directly from the designer Mr Suchy with whom I luckily managed to contact
...It was my first diving apparatus which I built in 1957 (I didn't know the Cousteau & Gagnan design yet). The cylinders were from a Russian plane and the breathing reducer was modified from a German oxygen breathing apparatus removed from a Messerschmitt 109 - I found the parts in a warehouse of downed planes from World War II...Designer & Manufacturer: Eng. Leszek Suchy, Poland Time of production: 1957 Construction: double hose without one - way valves... Set: 2 x 8L 150 atm carbon steel cylinder , about 15 kg to be continued ... Pawel
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Post by nikeajax on Jan 17, 2024 9:27:45 GMT -8
Paweł, podoba mi się ten Suchy: ten niebieski sprawia, że wygląda jak zabawka albo kreskówka, jak dzieci rysują, bo nie wiedzą, jak wygląda automat do nurkowania, tylko że wszyscy powinni mieć dwie butle i dwa węże . Ciekawe, że jest przytwierdzony na stałe. Dziękujemy za oświecenie nas, dobrze jest zobaczyć coś innego niż zwykłe regulatory. Pawel, I love this one, the Suchy: that blue makes it looks like a toy or a cartoon, like kids draw because they don’t know what a scuba regulator looks like, only, they should all have two tanks, and two hoses. Interesting how it’s permanently attached. Thank you for enlightening us, it good to see something other than the usual regs. JB
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Post by pabloo on Jan 17, 2024 12:46:14 GMT -8
I am not sure about the original colour of apparatus... It was "difficult" time in Poland for inventors so it's possible that only blue paint was available:) I make mistake about regulator connection - it's not DIN as you see on the picture, apologies gentleman. It's just beginning, will be more info & pictures Regards Pawel
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Post by nikeajax on Jan 17, 2024 14:51:27 GMT -8
I am not sure about the original colour of apparatus... It was "difficult" time in Poland for inventors so it's possible that only blue paint was available:) Pawel Paweł, rozumiem Po prostu uwielbiam ten kolor, ponieważ sprawia wrażenie używanego/kochanego, jak stara para niebieskich dżinsów Levi'sa lub ulubiona zabawka... Dorastałem bardzo biednie, więc wszystko musieliśmy naprawiać i ponownie wykorzystywać: mój ojciec został ranny w wypadku przy pracy, więc moja mama starała się, jak mogła, naprawić wszystko, co było zepsute. Dziwnie się czasem czuję kupując nowe rzeczy, wolę stare, bo i tak są zwykle lepsze. Pawel, I get/understand that I just love the color because it makes it look well-used/loved, like an old pair of Levi's blue jeans or a favorite toy... I grew up very poor, so we had to fix and reuse everything: my father was hurt in an industrial accident, so my mom tried her best to fix anything that was broken. It feels weird sometimes buying new stuff, I prefer old things, because they're usually made better anyway. JB
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cg43
Senior Diver
Posts: 90
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Post by cg43 on Jan 18, 2024 14:46:23 GMT -8
Hello Pawel
Thank's for al the information about the polish diving gear .
Opposide to the text I see the MACZEK very different to the CG. First the exhaust is in the horn no in the case . Second the reg. has a downstream valve not an upstream . The picture show's first one singel arm lever followed by an doubel arm lever . If the main diaphragm goes down the last lever goes up and because the pressure comes from downside we have an Downstream valve .
About the Suchy : I'm not sure but I guess the pipe between the tanks is for recharge the tanks .
Greetings Rainer
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Post by pabloo on Jan 19, 2024 4:13:08 GMT -8
Hello Pawel Thank's for al the information about the polish diving gear . Opposite to the text I see the MACZEK very different to the CG. First the exhaust is in the horn no in the case . Second the reg. has a downstream valve not an upstream . The picture show's first one singel arm lever followed by an double arm lever . If the main diaphragm goes down the last lever goes up and because the pressure comes from downside we have an Downstream valve . About the Suchy : I'm not sure but I guess the pipe between the tanks is for recharge the tanks . Greetings Rainer Hello Rainer Thanks for your comments... I'm in a hurry to explain if you read the introduction what is important... the first Polish diving apparatus NEPTUN, modeled on the CG, began to be produced in 1957, and before that only the Marine Station in Sopot purchased 3 CG apparatus and 3 Medi Nixe apparatus in 1955 for nautical research. Maczek was made in 1954 so before this happened, there were no publicly available technical diagrams or available devices in Poland on which Maczek could be based...only the principle of operation and construction of the gas reducer on which the CG design was based. So MACZEK apparatus was Mr. Maczek invention and made by him - there is no information what it was based on or that "construction is similar to CG apparatus" ... that's why MACZEK regulator construction and exhaust is different than CG. ... "Designer & Manufacturer: Wiesław Maczek, Kraków, Poland Time of production: 1954 , up to 30 units was made. Construction: double hose without one - way valves, one-stage up-stream unbalanced, exhaust - mushroom type on the end of hose - look at the picture. Connection: DIN R 5/8”, Set: 1-2 x 8L 150 atm carbon steel cylinder ... About up & down stream construction - I put pictures & info from the museum so inside construction is invisible. But the lever combination suggest that you have right...it's close photo so please confirm Rainer that's DOWNSTREAM. You are correct about SUCHY apparatus, the pipe between was used for recharge the tanks. I will ask to make more detailed photos of apparatus when will go next time to museum...this is the only copy so they don't "let touch it" Let me know about any comments - questions that you have ...I will try to find answers for them Rainer With regards Pawel
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Post by pabloo on Jan 19, 2024 12:08:43 GMT -8
It must be remembered that the amateur constructions we are talking about were created 60-70 years ago in garages or small workshops as a single working prototypes or in a small number of copies. Technical documentation for these devices mostly does not exist also the museum and private owners don't want to share every information they have with people like me. Fortunately, later, factory-produced devices have detailed technical descriptions, operating diagrams and photos which I will attach. Of course not "all of them" once, if someone will have any comments or questions I will try to find the answer, add additional photos etc. A piece of diving history... 1957-58 exploration of the Cold Cave in the Tatra Mountains, Poland During the operation on January 3, 1958, Stanisław Ogaza, a diver diving with Wiesław Maczek, had an accident... fortunately, he was saved. Mr. Maczek, the designer of the MACZEK apparatus, during a rescue operation in a Cold Cave Regards Pawel
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Post by nikeajax on Jan 19, 2024 13:55:31 GMT -8
This is reminding me of the Dacor lever system: This image is simply amazing, beautiful: it's a story unto itself Huh, look at his ring: is the image flipped? JB
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cg43
Senior Diver
Posts: 90
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Post by cg43 on Jan 19, 2024 16:48:10 GMT -8
Hello Pawel
Nice photo from Mr. Maczek !
Building diving gear in a garage is much more difficult than in a companie with specialists and good tools . I knew this from my own experience , but it's as well great fun if successlful . In the past I made several design's on paper but I wasn'nt abel to build with my tools and workmanship . Now when I find such a design , for exaple the pressure compensated exhaust valve from the SCOTT AQUA PACK , it's a great plesure for me . That's one reason I'm looking for old and unusually design's .
I don't knew the information Mr. Maczek and Mr. Suchy had about the CG patent and what where their intention's for their design's . But take as fact that most designer don't like to simply copy design's . At least they will try to make modifikation's . The way Maczek , Suchy placed their exhaust valve (neart to the center main diaphragm) show's that they knowed the freeflow problem very well. The CG design in this case work's well , but it is allway the first naturally idea to bring both center near together . There must allways be a good reason for a capable designer to choose an other design . The CG patent or the wish to make a own design is anyway a possibel and honourabel reason .
Shure , the MACZEK has an Downstream valve .
Greetings Rainer
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Post by SeaRat on Jan 19, 2024 16:59:47 GMT -8
So Mr. Maczek is the one in the photo of the diver? If so, that's great!
Tell us a little about the accident, and how Stanisław Ogaza as saved during the accident. That should be a great story.
John
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Post by nikeajax on Jan 19, 2024 19:40:20 GMT -8
Gosh, I can't help wondering: did Sea Hunt rip this one off? JB
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Post by pabloo on Jan 20, 2024 0:35:39 GMT -8
Hello Pawel Nice photo from Mr. Maczek ! Building diving gear in a garage is much more difficult than in a companie with specialists and good tools . I knew this from my own experience , but it's as well great fun if successlful . In the past I made several design's on paper but I wasn'nt abel to build with my tools and workmanship . Now when I find such a design , for exaple the pressure compensated exhaust valve from the SCOTT AQUA PACK , it's a great plesure for me . That's one reason I'm looking for old and unusually design's . I don't knew the information Mr. Maczek and Mr. Suchy had about the CG patent and what where their intention's for their design's . But take as fact that most designer don't like to simply copy design's . At least they will try to make modifikation's . The way Maczek , Suchy placed their exhaust valve (neart to the center main diaphragm) show's that they knowed the freeflow problem very well. The CG design in this case work's well , but it is allway the first naturally idea to bring both center near together . There must allways be a good reason for a capable designer to choose an other design . The CG patent or the wish to make a own design is anyway a possibel and honourabel reason . Shure , the MACZEK has an Downstream valve . Greetings Rainer Hello Rainer You are right that built or improve something by own hand gives lot of satisfaction...or frustration when you don't have tools, materials or technologi to make your idea. Both of them were engineers with "technical minds" and "pressure gas reduktor" was commonly in use so the only problem was how to rebuild it for scuba use ... same as made it C&G. Many devices that worked better or worse were created at that time, but CG won the race by patenting its solution. They accused many times other designers for patent infringement like Georges Herail's POUMONDEU...His construction was more technologically advanced and better functioning, he won in court against CG but its construction was forgotten...life is brutal. Thank you for MACZEK "downstream" confirmation, I will ask for change the description on device plate. Regards Pawel
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Post by pabloo on Jan 24, 2024 10:56:26 GMT -8
The history of Polish diving apparatus part 2 As was mentioned before, in the mid of 1950' at ZMP in Gdansk engineers Jan Hiszpański and Marian Grimm were working on a new product for underwater experiments based on scuba gear of Jacques Cousteau. Finally in 1956 the first Polish diving regulator "NEPTUN" which was officially accepted for production and Poland was the first of the socialist countries to launch the production of its own diving apparatus in 1957 at ZPM in Gdańsk. Unluckily the lack of quality materials, subcontractors and the long waiting period for obtaining production permits meant that only approximately 1500 of devices was produced. NEPTUN (neptune) Production: Poland Manufacturer: Precision Engineering Manufacturer Gdańsk Time of production: 1957 - 1959 Constructor: Eng. Jan Hiszpanski & Eng. Marian Grimm Construction: double hose without one - way valves, combined stages modeled on the CG apparatus (reduction to 6-8 atm) Connection: French Yoke Set P-1: carbon steel cylinder 1x8L, 150 atm (air reserve 20-25 atm, 160-200L) weight 16kg. Mounted on the back (straps or a back brace) with the valve facing up. The factory book with technical data, instruction of use and "divers guide" for beginners. The apparatus was relatively heavy (carbon steel tank) with negative buoyancy of the set (-4 kg) compensated by a belt with floats (8 pieces) put on by the diver. Regulator has high breathing resistance (inspiratory negative pressure 80-100 mm H2O) due to the original excessively thick diaphragm (1-2mm) which was usually changed by users from next MORS apparatus. Despite of that NEPTUN was used widely throughout Poland by the Navy, Ship Rescue, Marine Station of the Polish Academy of Sciences, diving clubs...and others, sometimes very interesting;) Eng Hiszpański gives personal instruction to unknown, beautiful user To be continued... Regards Pawel
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