Buzz
Senior Diver
Posts: 64
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Post by Buzz on Sept 7, 2005 8:10:18 GMT -8
Marine grade brass is the only thing to use for this.
Buzz
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Post by jrvance on Sept 7, 2005 14:08:54 GMT -8
heres going out on a whim ;D titanium and carbon fiber although i dont think they even new what carbon fiber was in the 50s  |
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Creed
Pro Diver
Posts: 189
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Post by Creed on Sept 7, 2005 19:43:08 GMT -8
Marine grade brass is the only thing to use for this. Buzz Do you happen to know of a source for raw marine grade brass? |
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Post by admin on Sept 8, 2005 8:23:47 GMT -8
Yes, I've heard that about leaded brass. I'm thinking the alloy to use would be bronze, since it doesn't have lead. The 1955 Divair was brass or bronze but it was chrome plated. Perhaps that sealed in any lead in the alloy?
There are lots of questions that come up...many deep sea helmets have brass parts somewhere in the air system. I also have an abalony band mask that is brass.
Needless to say, there is much more research to be done....
Dan
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Buzz
Senior Diver
Posts: 64
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Post by Buzz on Sept 9, 2005 7:34:09 GMT -8
with the small amount of metal that you will be using....I doubt it will be cost effective to go straight to a metal supply house....their minimums can be quite high.
best thing to do would be to snoop around a marine scrap yard for some old bent up brass props or some old ship fittings. Unfortunately, portholes usually go for premium prices.....but there's usually plenty of good brass in other fittings.
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Creed
Pro Diver
Posts: 189
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Post by Creed on Sept 10, 2005 9:32:48 GMT -8
Yes, I've heard that about leaded brass. I'm thinking the alloy to use would be bronze, since it doesn't have lead. The 1955 Divair was brass or bronze but it was chrome plated. Perhaps that sealed in any lead in the alloy? There are lots of questions that come up...many deep sea helmets have brass parts somewhere in the air system. I also have an abalony band mask that is brass. Needless to say, there is much more research to be done.... Dan All of my regulators are brass, and some have flaking chrome. Unfortunately, the majority of the scrap brass I can get here in the midwest is leaded plumbing brass fittings. I am almost inclined to buy up old single hose regulators for the purpose of melting them down. |
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Post by admin on Sept 10, 2005 13:43:35 GMT -8
I mentioned the Divair because it is the only cast bronze regulator that I know off. I forgot that most regs were stamped brass with chrome.
If plumbing fittings have lead and drinking water runs through the fittings, how un-safe can it be?
Dan
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ralphl
Regular Diver
Posts: 35
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Post by ralphl on Sept 10, 2005 16:03:20 GMT -8
Hi Da,
Long time since you sent me some info and manuals for a DA I got hold of.
Great board and group, you and Linda do a great service here.
To the point, how bad can leaded stuff be? I work for an un-named Federal angency that moved into a newly built facility in Maryland in 1987. Turned out the solder used on the copper piping was high lead content. So the water exceeded the EPA limits and the drinking fountains were off-limits. The ended up running a sealant through the pipes and certified the water as potable.
This with an agency of 3200, 3000 of which are engineers and scientists. We did not take this well.
Lead content is no joking matter. You have a beautiful design there, does it right (ignore George Irvine and his ilk) so why take chances with questionable materials? It should be clear from this group that people will support you and buy a REAL two-hose regulator.
My thoughts.
Again, thanks for all you and Linda are doing.
Ralph
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Post by admin on Sept 14, 2005 9:35:27 GMT -8
Hi, Ralph-
Good to hear from you again and thanks for the nice comments. Your story is very interesting and it clears up the question of getting lead poisoning indirectly from brass or copper fixtures. I will definitely buy the right brass or bronze before I cast a working regulator.
Dan
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Post by Broxton Carol on Sept 14, 2005 13:23:09 GMT -8
My machinist who does the BANJO FITTINGS said they were made of "Marine Bronze" Some alloy I suppose. Ill see if I can find out what it is. It does turn reddish with age and exposure. He gets it in bar stock, and it is quite expensive. Chucko
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Post by Captain on Sept 14, 2005 15:47:21 GMT -8
I would think that leaded brass or bronze would not be a hazard at all to the diver using the regulator and a minor hazard to the machinest during fabrication. I think the greatest hazard would be lead fumes in the casting process. In potable water piping lead solder can leach in to the water as the water sit in the pipes. it cannot leach into the air unless it is vaporized at high temperature.
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Post by seakrakken on Sept 14, 2005 23:05:34 GMT -8
Why are we so concerned about a small quantity of lead as an alloy in brass? Are we not the very people wearing lead weights when we dive? We handle this material regularly. Examples of worst case lead exposure scenarios can be from sources such as the corrosion of lead solder used to assemble a drinking fountain that you drink from several times a day for years, working 30 years in a lead foundry or smelting plant, eating significant amounts lead based paint as a child, or growing up in the fallout zone of a lead smelting facility. Please do not misunderstand me. I am not trying to deny lead's adverse effect. I am trying only to put this into perspective. The amount of lead typically found in leaded brass is under 2%. This alloy is typically found in brass stock meant for extensive machining operations. Marine brass has as it's primary alloy 2% or less tin. This is what makes Marine brass very resistant to corrosion. Brass as found in rifle and pistol cartridges is usually 70% copper and 30% zinc. This gives brass it's maximum ductility rating. I cast bullets, I cast dive weights. I do so outside where I have maximum ventilation possible. My risk of becoming ill casting on an occassional basis is negligible. If your concerned about metal toxicity issues quit cooking meals with aluminum pots and pans and stop using anti-persperant containing aluminum chlorohydrate and aluminum zirconium. Now back to reality. Dan is unlikely to choose a lead bearing brass alloy for his castings. Dan could really cut his costs If he were close to any old shipyards and could scavenge a ship's propeller. It would likely be a brass alloy called Delta metal. It's tough! It's primary alloy is iron at 3% or less.
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ralphl
Regular Diver
Posts: 35
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Post by ralphl on Sept 15, 2005 3:52:21 GMT -8
Hi Gang,
Lots of good comments here, and I agree with seakrakken's especially. The sole point in bringing out the leaded solder issue was just to point out where these things can go. The EPA standard is EXTREMELY low and is not representative of a real health risk unless you ingest an unusually large quantity over a long period of time. All that said, it is still something to watch out for and work around.
Although we are talking about a small niche market for the VintageScubaSupply 2-hose, sales may get the attention of the big kids. When an industry is hurting the big kids look for people to go after no matter how small their market share. Giving them a target like "potentially hazardous" material is something to avoid if possible.
Dan has a great looking reg, careful choice of materials makes it even better. With 300+ members of this board there is a decent market for his regulator. This is a true 2-hoser and exciting to think about ACTUALLY being available. I started in 1958 (too young by today's standards) with Sea Hunt and a DA. Have a DA again, but the chance to get a brand-new, right out of the box, honest-to-goodness 2-hoser is exciting.
Plus we all know Dan and Linda put more into their products/sevices than they probably recoup. And they are nice people deal with.
Ralph
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Post by SeaRat on Sept 15, 2005 7:49:30 GMT -8
Take a look at this website: ianrpubs.unl.edu/water/g1333.htmDan, I would stay away from brass containing lead. Seawater is probably more corrosive than the freshwater systems, and could potentially leach more lead. John |
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Post by BLT on Sept 15, 2005 11:52:45 GMT -8
OK, so I understand lead is a bad thing, especially for small children since it acts similar to calcium and is rapidly taken into growing bones (IIRC) and causes other problems in the brain. What I don't understand is just how we as divers would be ingesting this lead. We are talking very small quantities of lead that are pretty much tied up in the metal alloys of the box. We aren't eating the box or putting it in our mouths. There is very little water that may be ingested that has come incontact with the actual metal of the regulator itself!
As I understand it, the main issues with leaded solder in pipes is that the water sits in the pipe overnight or over weekends and leaches the lead out into the water, which is then drunk, which is a bad thing - especially for small children. Acidic and/or hot water make this problem even worse.
I fail to see how 2% lead content, in a regulator is going to have any real impact on a diver. You are breathing air that has been in contact with this "leaded" metal for what a couple seconds at most? Just how much lead can you absorb by breathing this air an hour or two a month or even a couple hours a day (if you are a dive professional).
I fail to see where this is really a problem for the end user i.e. a diver (I do realize there are some different factors to take into account for someone actually machining the metal and so on, but that doesn't affect us, and whomever Dan has doing the work should already be taking appropriate precautions...)
Or, am I just missing something here?
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