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Post by crabbyjim on Jan 12, 2020 11:36:22 GMT -8
I just started a flame war on Facebook (for lack of anything better to do). In reply to a question about where to get your regulator serviced, I suggested learning to do it yourself. I have, (sort of) although I do need and appreciate the help I get here and on Youtube. “Authorized dealers won’t sell you parts” “It’s highly technical and requires super hoomin skill.”
Scubapro sells some new reg for more than $2,000 but they look a lot like the old ones we write about here. They perform the same function, right?
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Post by snark3 on Jan 12, 2020 11:45:51 GMT -8
Jim- I agree completely. I saw a pic in one of Gary Gentile's books a guy was diving the Andrea Doria with a Conshelf 20. If a Conshelf 20 was good enough for them to dive the Doria in the 90's, its good enough for me to beach dive now. Parts are available for the Conshelf line.
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Post by nikeajax on Jan 12, 2020 13:12:29 GMT -8
CJ, are you just makin' a statement, or askin' a kwesschun about hoominz for skubahz?  JB |
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Post by crabbyjim on Jan 12, 2020 13:28:00 GMT -8
Both. I think the guy on Facebook must work for a shop or else doesn’t understand that the maintenance of regulators isn’t that involved. My wife has the training and close motor skills necessary to rebuild a regulator. Even I can do it, albeit much more slowly, as evidenced by the MR-12 that Vance disassembled in two minutes and I was afraid to tackle for six months. Works great.
And if you have ever looked at the bag of parts returned after a “factory authorized” rebuild, you’ll notice that it is primarily o rings and a few miscellaneous springs and washers.
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Post by nikeajax on Jan 12, 2020 13:43:22 GMT -8
 Never stop trying, never give up! if you've ver seen a Buster Keaton film, you know he always plays the underdog, but always perseveres  My wife and I absolutely detest that stupid Yoda quote, "Do, or do not: there is no try..." It's so effing defeatist and makes people really necrotic about trying things  JB |
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Post by Michel on Jan 13, 2020 17:25:49 GMT -8
Evening gentlemen, have not posted in awhile but regularly monitor this forum from my vintage scuba laboratory!
This topic is always one that irks me and I believe that it is all about control and the dumb-ing down of customers not only in the diving equipment world but in many other sectors. By making a device or product assume a level of complexity or mystery they control your access and many times the devices are made to be 'not-serviceable' thus making u trash it or replace it! With vintage scuba it's either we're not filling your twin 72's or we're not selling u this or that part knowing you dive with a DH mistral!Some of these dive store young people can't think beyond their push button smart phones and forget about them knowing even a bit about diving history! I really can't be bothered with modern scuba divers/clubs/organizations and their billions of course certifications and general nonsense. M.
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Post by SeaRat on Jan 13, 2020 22:50:53 GMT -8
I hear you Michel, and thanks for the post. As you know, I've been fiddling around with my dive equipment for decades. I recently saw a the parts removed from a rebuild, and they were in a plastic bag on the parking lot of the LDS. I picked them up and may use them in a rebuild of a Scubapro reg (109) later this year. My pet peeve is the new "superflex" LP hoses, which manufacturer are now saying need to be replaced every five years. And, of course, the LDS needs to do the replacing. I have LP hoses that are 50 years old and not in need of replacement. Masks for the public are not now made well either. Here's an example of masks no one should buy, as the strap retaining pin is of plastic and breaks easily.  IMG_2455 by John Ratliff, on Flickr  IMG_2456 by John Ratliff, on Flickr John |
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Post by cnotthoff on Jan 14, 2020 11:53:50 GMT -8
I think Jim is trying to stir up a little controversy to show that we haven't "all said what we have to say". That said, here's a reply from one guy's LDS.
I'm fine with competent people servicing their own regulators. Those of us who have worked in the back room for a few years have seen that not all divers meet that criterion. I've had regs come to me as a box of parts after a diver couldn't figure out how to put them back together. I've seen regulators with missing parts. I've worked with divers who are confused about how to install a low-pressure hose. I'm here to make sure everyone's dive gear is safe to dive. Being a good mechanic is not a required part of being a good diver or good driver.
On the subject of selling parts so you can work on your own gear; I'm sorry to say that our lives are run by lawyers. I have to follow industry standards as an instructor and technician to have a defensible position if something bad happens. I'm not buying the "he would never sue me" line.
Good Dives,
Charlie
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Post by snark3 on Jan 14, 2020 13:34:22 GMT -8
Charlie- You hit the nail right on the head "our lives are run by lawyers". While the guy you sold the parts to may not sue you if something bad happens, his next of kin may if something really bad happened. I believe that's why my local Aqualung dealer won't service my Pro Diver, even though the parts are the same as a Conshelf Aqualung lists a different kit to service it.
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Post by nikeajax on Jan 14, 2020 14:18:51 GMT -8
Yer damned if'n ya do, an' damned if'n ya don't!  JB |
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Post by herman on Jan 14, 2020 14:27:12 GMT -8
I think Jim is trying to stir up a little controversy to show that we haven't "all said what we have to say". That said, here's a reply from one guy's LDS. I'm fine with competent people servicing their own regulators. Those of us who have worked in the back room for a few years have seen that not all divers meet that criterion. I've had regs come to me as a box of parts after a diver couldn't figure out how to put them back together. I've seen regulators with missing parts. I've worked with divers who are confused about how to install a low-pressure hose. I'm here to make sure everyone's dive gear is safe to dive. Being a good mechanic is not a required part of being a good diver or good driver. On the subject of selling parts so you can work on your own gear; I'm sorry to say that our lives are run by lawyers. I have to follow industry standards as an instructor and technician to have a defensible position if something bad happens. I'm not buying the "he would never sue me" line. Good Dives, Charlie
While I agree with most of that, I call BS on the "not selling parts due to liability" story. If anything you run a lot more risk doing the work. This is nothing more than a convenient excuse. I have challenged a lot of folks many times to show me ANY lawsuit that was filed against anyone simply selling quality parts, scuba or otherwise (auto parts for example) that resulted in a lawsuit, much less a successful one. This is akin to suing Walmart for selling me bullets that I put in my gun and I shot my foot with the bullet.
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Post by crabbyjim on Jan 14, 2020 15:29:06 GMT -8
I think Jim is trying to stir up a little controversy to show that we haven't "all said what we have to say". That said, here's a reply from one guy's LDS. I'm fine with competent people servicing their own regulators. Those of us who have worked in the back room for a few years have seen that not all divers meet that criterion. I've had regs come to me as a box of parts after a diver couldn't figure out how to put them back together. I've seen regulators with missing parts. I've worked with divers who are confused about how to install a low-pressure hose. I'm here to make sure everyone's dive gear is safe to dive. Being a good mechanic is not a required part of being a good diver or good driver. On the subject of selling parts so you can work on your own gear; I'm sorry to say that our lives are run by lawyers. I have to follow industry standards as an instructor and technician to have a defensible position if something bad happens. I'm not buying the "he would never sue me" line. Good Dives, Charlie To quote Jaybird, “I resemble those remarks”. Some of the people on a local FB page about scuba diving know everything. I did pick a fight with a few of these jerks because I was bored. I didn’t know anything about how regulators worked until I found this group. Didn’t stop me from having fun diving for more than forty years at the time. Now I know a little more about how they work and how to fix them. My remarks were not meant to be disrespectful to Charlie. He knows what he is doing and is a great person, too. As a lawyer, I understand what he means about lawyers ruining things. Some do, some don’t. I also agree with Herman's statement about selling regulator parts. If someone is nervous about liability for selling parts, lawyers have invented waivers. The folks I have a problem with are the ones who don’t know what they are talking about and invent phoney reasons to cover their ignorance. That excludes all the members of this group. |
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Post by vance on Jan 14, 2020 15:29:52 GMT -8
Liability is a risk. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s all about who can successfully sue you for something by convincing a jury that they should feel sorry for the plaintiff. I sell regulators on eBay. I’m going to stop as soon as I get rid of the stuff I don’t want, hopefully before someone decides I’m responsible for killing whoever bought a regulator from me despite the disclaimer I have added to every auction saying that they need to be sure they are qualified to use the equipment, have training in the use of dh regulators, and have had the equipment inspected by a qualified tech.
l’m sure a competent attorney can tear that disclaimer to shreds. I just read an article about unserialed and unregistered ar15 lowers and how attorneys are claiming they aren’t receivers, which is the definition of a firearm. One attorney said he was glad his felon client got off of a possession rap, but said he’s concerned “as a citizen” that this kind of loophole exists. WTF!!!
I own guns and don’t mean to start a 2nd amendment debate. I’m only pointing out the idiocy of our legal system.
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Post by cnotthoff on Jan 14, 2020 17:14:31 GMT -8
Thanks Jim,
No disrespect or offense taken. You're a great person (for a lawyer) as well. I remember at one of our meetings someone asked you what kind of lawyer you were. I liked your response of "a good one".
I haven't looked at our dealer's agreement lately. They used to include a section about parts only being provided to certified technicians. For better or worse, it's an industry standard.
Good Dives,
Charlie
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Post by duckbill on Jan 14, 2020 21:26:52 GMT -8
I'm fine with competent people servicing their own regulators. Those of us who have worked in the back room for a few years have seen that not all divers meet that criterion. I've had regs come to me as a box of parts after a diver couldn't figure out how to put them back together. I've seen regulators with missing parts. I've worked with divers who are confused about how to install a low-pressure hose. I'm here to make sure everyone's dive gear is safe to dive. Being a good mechanic is not a required part of being a good diver or good driver. While he has a point, it's also true that one does not have to be a good mechanic to work on regulators as a professional. In fact, the reason I end up doing so may things myself is because time and time again I find myself terribly disappointed by the shoddy workmanship of "professionals" these days. And, when it come to dive gear, I only trust myself with my life. |
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