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Post by SeaRat on Jan 2, 2021 22:21:40 GMT -8
You might be wondering why I cut this valve body twice and then filled it back in with JBWeld. The reason is that I don't want to cut up any more valve bodies. The results I got from the first two experiments were mixed, so I want to keep forging ahead. But, I only have 2 orphan valves, both of which I have modded, and I don't want to cut any more. If, by experimenting on this one, I find the answer that I'm looking for, I might move on to modding other valves. Until then, I'll limit my mutilating to this one as long as I can. In case you all have forgotten or if you have joined the party late, here's the reason for the obsession about modding an HW Scuba valve to a GL type venturi valve: I want to make a balanced single stage regulator with a venturi that's as good as a GL. This requires modding a long Scuba valve by installing Conshelf guts, like the Misuba Rev4, AND figuring out the venturi or venturi-like performance. I have already accomplished the balanced mod on the Misuba Rev4, and achieved the GL performance with the Super Deluxe. But the S-D has a short valve, which can't accept the Conshelf balanced guts. I am very reluctant to mod a long valve due to their rarity. I am experimenting on the orphan short valve to perfect the GL type air supply, so I might feel comfortable enough to do a long valve in case of success. Phil, I think I've finally figured out why my attempt to do the same with a balanced Healthways Scuba failed; I had no idea that there were two different sized Healthways bodies. I think I still have the guts from my experiment too, but I'll have to check tomorrow. John
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Post by nikeajax on Jan 3, 2021 9:22:16 GMT -8
I liked myself again!! Meant to edit.... Yeah, I was wondering about that, "Damn I'm good: yes, I shall 'like' this so that everyone knows that I know how smart I am..." Anyway, I'm pretty sure that if you hit the "like" button a second time, you can unlike it JB
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Post by vance on Jan 3, 2021 9:40:47 GMT -8
Yes, John, that's the reason you couldn't get the circlip to seat. The Conshelf parts won't fit in the short valve. This was discussed in my Misuba mashup thread and several times in various other threads. There is a new one that is an attempt to consolidate information about the valve differences here: vintagescuba.proboards.com/thread/5457/healthways-scuba-label-valve-variationsThere are several key differences in the parts, and one needs to be aware that the soft seats are different in the long and short valves. The step that holds the spring in the soft seat is raised higher for the long valve, to make up the difference.
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Post by vance on Jan 3, 2021 9:50:35 GMT -8
I liked myself again!! Meant to edit.... Yeah, I was wondering about that, "Damn I'm good: yes, I shall 'like' this so that everyone knows that I know how smart I am..." Anyway, I'm pretty sure that if you hit the "like" button a second time, you can unlike it JB You are correct. I went back and tried it. Thanks!
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Post by vance on Jan 3, 2021 10:20:04 GMT -8
I might as well get into this now. To echo Luis and Herman, you can't just stuff the Conshelf parts into a Scuba valve body and get a balanced valve. A couple of things require changing. A hard seat with a volcano orifice must be used in place of the concave HW seat. The Conshelf balanced parts are on top. Note the different hard seat. I believe I used a Sportsways part. (Charlie posted a photo in one of the threads that shows the measurements of a couple of compatible seats. I'll edit this when I find it.) And a pin of the correct length needs to be made that fits up inside the Conshelf soft seat carrier to allow HP air up into the balance chamber. The photo shows the Scuba pin on the left, an HW single hose pin in the middle, and the SH pin modded for the Conshelf balanced parts. Even then, the valve may not be balanced. I measured the HW and Conshelf valve bodies' internal dimensions and found them to be nearly identical. I figure if the Conshelf is balanced, then the modded HW should be as well. I have not done any tests that prove this. The Misuba Rev4 Balanced? seems to breathe as easily with a full tank as it does on a low tank, but that's just my subjective opinion. This is discussed ad nauseum in the Misuba thread.
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Post by vance on Jan 3, 2021 16:18:28 GMT -8
I made a scale drawing of the HW valve body, and determined that a drilling from the point of the edge of the outer circumference to the middle of the HP pin bore would need to be done at a 32.5 degree angle. Believe me, this is close! The angle is critical due to no meat. There's a danger of breaking through the metal if it's just a tiny bit off. I needed to get into the center of the HP pin bore and not break through to the atmosphere anywhere.
The 1/8" hole was done on the mill, but it could be done on a drill press. I set the valve body up at 32.5 degrees in my tilt-able machine vise, making sure everything was aligned properly for the deed. I cut a flat on the outer edge of the valve body's circumference, and then drilled through the JBWeld and into some brass. Done! I got a bit of break-through, but it's miniscule. I'll fill it wih JBWeld.
(EDIT: the 1/8" hole is too big, and should be reduced to 3/32 or even smaller.)
There is now a hole from the outer edge of the valve body into the HP pin bore, which is like the GL. It isn't perfect, but I'm happy with it. I'll reduce the angle to 32 degrees next time.
After capping it with a stainless cover, and assembling it in the SuperDeluxe cans with the air director, I tried it out. Boom! Lung buster!! The runaway venturi action is incredible. It sounds like a busted LP hose!
Now to tame it.....
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Post by vance on Jan 3, 2021 17:13:13 GMT -8
I feel like I need to make it clear that I have taken inspiration for these mods from a number of people.
It was not my original idea to stuff Conshelf guts all up in a Heathways Scuba valve. Michael L. was the first that I know of to propose this. I don't know if he succeeded, but he inspired my working version. (I will take credit for figuring out why the Conshelf conversion is impossible in most Scuba valves.)
ML's posts about air directors for the Scuba were the first I know of, as well. I believe JB designed the SnorkelJet off of ML's idea, which I, in turn, used as inspiration for the Ghost SnorkleJet and the 3D versions I proposed to James.
James brought the no mod SnorkelJet to life with little more than a "what if" from me, and his design inspired my stainless steel version (which requires irreversible mods to the valve body).
So, I'll restate that James' 3D Snorkeljet is the best so far no-modification-necessary upgrade to the 1st gen Scuba. It improves performance, but there's much more that can be done if you're willing to make irreversible changes to the valve body or the top can register flat.
That being said, I'm slowly moving in the direction of a GL-like mod for the Scuba and the Deluxe. It might not be something that can be done by the average guy, but I'd like to make it work.
More to follow.
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Post by vance on Jan 3, 2021 19:36:56 GMT -8
A quick thought: what if the HP pin's 4 sides were grooved to allow more air to pass? That would only require modding the pin (or making a new one), not the valve body....
I think a 3D snorkeljet might work very well if this was done.
I'll make a delrin HP pin and see if this does anything!
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Post by nikeajax on Jan 4, 2021 9:22:24 GMT -8
PY, could you make a three sided actuator: that would give you better flow. Also, why does the actuator need to reach all the way into the valve block? As far as I can see, USD only did that to keep the pin rigid/from walking around.
JB
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Post by vance on Jan 4, 2021 10:10:06 GMT -8
PY, could you make a three sided actuator: that would give you better flow. Also, why does the actuator need to reach all the way into the valve block? As far as I can see, USD only did that to keep the pin rigid/from walking around. JB I want to keep it simple at this point. The hope has always been to make as little change to the reg as possible, and hopefully to come up with something anyone with a few simple tools can accomplish. It's obviously beyond the bounds of that idea to make new pins, but I'm doing it to avoid experimenting on an original part. The available air isn't being utilized with the stock pin clearance. This is very clear by the blast of air coming out of the newly drilled valve body. So, it isn't necessary to mod the hard seat by drilling it out. Some manner of increasing the volume of air past the pin should do it. The simplest method to do this seems to be 2 or more grooves cut down the sides of the pin. Because this is a single stage regulator, the air pressure coming through is HP. There's no pressure drop to a reasonable 150 or so psi in a first stage. The only regulation is through restricting volume. Too much volume is as big a problem as too little!
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Post by vance on Jan 4, 2021 10:29:14 GMT -8
The GL pin has a relief cut around the middle which intersects with the venturi drilling. Most of the air does not get past there, and is directed into the drilling and out the side of the valve body.
This is so efficient that the venturi needs to be detuned by diverting some of the air into the box via small drillings in the top of the valve and the nozzle.
The Scuba and Deluxe pin is designed so all the air passes the pin and exits straight out of the top of the valve and into the box.Hopefully, increasing the volume into the SnorkelJet will improve its performance. This seems obvious, but the opening into the 3D SJ itself may be much of the problem.
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Post by vance on Jan 4, 2021 16:22:04 GMT -8
I mentioned up above somewhere that the soft seats for the long and short valves are different. I found a couple of photos that clearly show this. Here's the short valve seat and spring. And the long valve seat and spring. What's cool about these pics is that you can see where the spring seats in both since they're translucent (translucent-ish, in the first photo). This accounts for the .055" difference. I have never seen any reference, other than my own, to any differences between Scuba valves. This is a bit worrisome, since the parts aren't interchangeable across the board. If you run into the floppy valve problem, you can, and should, take up the difference with custom shims. Again, here is an opportunity to experiment with cracking pressure! There may be some connection with this and the two different styles of reserve plate (not referring to K and J plates which are only different by the size of the hole), as well. One is stamped sheet metal, and the other is a turned part. I doubt the difference in the two is significant as it relates to the spring compression. Point is, there is a difference. It kinda looks like they were planning to use an o-ring around the machined plate, but I have never seen one with an o-ring installed. I've had maybe 5 Scubas with this machined plate, so the sample is small. I never paid attention to which regs had which plate. I regret this. I believe that the long valve Scubas had the machined plate, but I can't back that up.
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Post by vance on Jan 6, 2021 18:25:07 GMT -8
Ok, I made 2 new pins. One is delrin, the other brass. The brass one is better, due to the flexibility of the plastic vs the metal while machining these little parts. The delrin one is ok.
Photos to follow. Hopefully, after I groove the pin sides on the brass part, we'll see some results.
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Post by vance on Jan 8, 2021 16:19:21 GMT -8
Here's the new brass pin with the stock stainless part. It has a piece of 1/16" hardened wire as the actuator. Here's what the clearances look like in the valve. It works well, but there's no overwhelming difference. My conclusion is that the restriction is mostly in the 3D SnorkelJet.
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Post by vance on Jan 8, 2021 16:22:55 GMT -8
The 3D SnorkelJet might work very well in practice. There is a big improvement over the stock Scuba performance. More actual dive testing needs to be done.
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