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Post by snark3 on Jul 9, 2020 12:28:42 GMT -8
We've been dealing with this problem for years here in Mass. Yesterday a group of residents in Rockport (one of the better towns to dive on Cape Ann) filed suit against the town to prohibit divers from using the town beaches. Do any of you out there have this problem? How are you dealing with it? If anyone wants to read the complaint send your email address and I'll send you a PDF.
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Post by scubalawyer on Jul 9, 2020 13:34:43 GMT -8
All divers, or just vintage divers?
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Post by snark3 on Jul 9, 2020 13:39:35 GMT -8
All Divers. The problem is not new, that's why I referred to it as a "Vintage Problem".
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Post by scubalawyer on Jul 9, 2020 15:20:37 GMT -8
All Divers. The problem is not new, that's why I referred to it as a "Vintage Problem". I would like to see a copy of that lawsuit. Can't imagine what the "Rational Basis" would be to implement a public ordinance banning diving. Although they tried that in my town back in the day and it was defeated. I'll PM you my email. Mark |
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Post by nikeajax on Jul 9, 2020 15:30:34 GMT -8
I can't help but think they feel that they are being impinged upon somehow: it's a "health and safety concern"  Could it be it's too much to ask of them to be careful with their boats in the area?  JB |
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Post by SeaRat on Jul 9, 2020 15:59:44 GMT -8
Since JB says it's a "health and safety concern," I may be able to help. I've been in the safety profession for decades, and may be able to address some of the issues.
John
PS, PM has been sent.
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Post by cnotthoff on Jul 9, 2020 19:50:11 GMT -8
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Post by scubalawyer on Jul 9, 2020 20:30:32 GMT -8
We had that happening in our town several times over the years. The first dive ordinance here was enacted in 1962.
"18.21.050 Scuba and skin diving classes restricted to certain hours. No person shall conduct any class of instruction in scuba diving or skin diving from June fifteenth to September fifteenth of any year, inclusive, before seven a.m. or after ten a.m. on any day on public beaches within the city. (Ord. 813 § 1, 1974; Ord. 506, 1962)."
Disrespectful divers were clanging their weights and tanks at all hours next to peoples homes. Dive classes with 20 people were gearing up spreading gear all over sidewalks and streets. Private driveways were being blocked, divers were talking loud and yelling, divers would take the fill-tape off their tanks (remember those?) and throw them on the ground. Divers were changing in and out of bathing suits on the street, etc... Dive lights were being shined in house windows.
In the 70's, in addition to the above ordinance, the City placed signs at every beach with a Diving Code of Etiquette (enforceable by fines for creating a nuisance). Those signs state:
Keep noise to a minimum, especially in the early morning and evening hours.
Enter and exit in sand beach areas; not over rocky points.
Prevent clutter - Keep unused diving equipment in your vehicle.
Be courteous when using night diving lights.
Be discrete when you dress and undress.
Loading and unloading of equipment is prohibited in no-parking zones.
Do not unload your equipment into the street.
Do not block sidewalks, driveways or stairways with diving equipment.
Use appropriate equipment when diving.
Follow the directions of city lifeguards; They are there for your safety.
Dive away from smaller coves and beaches, whenever possible.
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Post by snark3 on Jul 10, 2020 3:37:14 GMT -8
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Post by scubalawyer on Jul 10, 2020 6:13:27 GMT -8
Ok, I read the lawsuit. Not sure I see the Constitutional basis that would permit the property owners to file in Federal Court. The two Constitutional basis raised seem, on their face, rather weak.
As I recall my history, the Civil Rights Act of 1867 was vetoed by President Andrew Johnson but then passed by a 2/3 override vote in the House and Senate. Its premise was that all men are citizens even if once a slave. Don't see how it applies to this situation but who knows. The Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendmentforces a state to govern impartially—not draw distinctions between individuals solely on differences that are irrelevant to a legitimate governmental objective. Not sure how that applies either. Sounds like a lot of overreaching to me, but then I'm not being paid to advocate it and I haven't researched the issues. The other claims all appear to be ancillary State claims tacked on to the Federal Claims. A nuisance claim on its own may very well hold up in State Court but I'm not sure the Federal Court has original jurisdiction there.
When the plaintiff has to label the perpetrators as a "malevolent strain of divers," it reeks of overreaching.
Anyway, it will be interesting to see the city's response. At the least I would suspect a motion to remove the case to state court. Of course, my Constitutional law class in law school was many decades ago so my analysis may be way off. We will see. My 2psi.
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Post by snark3 on Jul 10, 2020 10:15:14 GMT -8
Thanks Mark. A guy I work with lives in Rockport, knows the plaintiff, and refers to him as a "carpet bagger who thinks he owns the beach". A comparison I can think of is, people buy houses a lower prices because the house is on a flight path of a major airport, then they complain about the jet noise and want the planes flying a different way.
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Post by nikeajax on Jul 10, 2020 11:04:59 GMT -8
Thanks Mark. A guy I work with lives in Rockport, knows the plaintiff, and refers to him as a "carpet bagger who thinks he owns the beach". A comparison I can think of is, people buy houses a lower prices because the house is on a flight path of a major airport, then they complain about the jet noise and want the planes flying a different way. Skip, unfortunately, "Carpetbaggers" have become quite vogue in these last few years  JB |
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Post by SeaRat on Jul 13, 2020 14:12:05 GMT -8
I read the lawsuit, and don't really see a safety aspect to this situation. There is probably a inconvenience aspect, and the public nudity could probably be handled directly. As I looked over the Google Maps of this beach, I noted that only about 6 homes are directly affected, and possibly another four just up the block or behind the others. It looks like this could be easily handled with signs about courtesy, and by in reading the restroom capacity (after COVID-19). It looks like offering courtesy on both sides would handle this situation. Concerning the diving at night, has anyone talked directly with the divers to ask for keeping the noise down, where to direct lights, talking in a low voice, etc.? Also, have any of the divers offered to show those homeowners the Powerpiont of photos taken at night, to educate their kids about what's out there, and show the neighbors the wonderland that they have right off this beach? I think outreach on both sides, but starting with the diver's, would go a long ways to solving this set of problems without a lawsuit.
John
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Post by snark3 on Jul 14, 2020 12:31:42 GMT -8
John- The "public Nudity" was a woman taking off her wetsuit while wearing a full coverage one piece bating suit under it. When I say full coverage I mean no cleavage showing, and no buttocks showing, she could have sat on the beach all day and nobody would have said a word. My understanding is the beach is closed from sundown to 6am, so if anyone is diving there at night thats a legit complaint and a matter for the police on a case by case situation. I get out of work at 4:30 AM so my buddy and I have been there before 6 and have just sat in the truck having coffee until almost 7.
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Post by SeaRat on Jul 14, 2020 16:38:10 GMT -8
John- The "public Nudity" was a woman taking off her wetsuit while wearing a full coverage one piece bating suit under it. When I say full coverage I mean no cleavage showing, and no buttocks showing, she could have sat on the beach all day and nobody would have said a word. My understanding is the beach is closed from sundown to 6am, so if anyone is diving there at night thats a legit complaint and a matter for the police on a case by case situation. I get out of work at 4:30 AM so my buddy and I have been there before 6 and have just sat in the truck having coffee until almost 7. I have been in this state of undress every dive I make at High Rocks, Gladstone, Oregon. The police have been there and witnessed me getting out of my wet suit. I really don't see a problem.  John |
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Could it be it's too much to ask of them to be careful with their boats in the area? 
