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Post by spirou on Oct 21, 2023 3:38:17 GMT -8
Spirou, Thank you for the patent number. I usually enjoy going through patents, but this one is most unusual. The first claim is almost undecipherable. Here it is, in one sentence (JB, ‘don’t think you’ll want to even look at this sentence); Again, the above is one sentence. It is 302 words long! It uses “movable means” to describe, I think, the diaphragm and levers. Amazing… That sentence was outdone by claim #10, with one sentence consisting of 355 words: patents.google.com/patent/US2787280A/en?oq=Arpin+US2787280Again, one sentence. Maybe that’s why Healthways bought the DivAir, but then developed its own set of regulators, called the Healthways Scuba. IMG_2916 by John Ratliff, on Flickr John Hello John, Too much things to read, the drawing speaks more than all, this draw give a better understanding than the text. Cheer's Fred
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Post by vance on Oct 21, 2023 7:33:07 GMT -8
The drawing is of the bronze body regulator. Note the duckbill in the exhaust horn! I wonder if the originals were ever sold with a db?
The text is ridiculous, woefully lacking in punctuation and with its repetition of the word "said". Is that traditional?
I'm trying to figure out the exhaust description. I think the "cap openings" are the slots in the cover.
"...an air exhaust chamber formed in said body, an exhaust valve in said exhaust chamber, said exhaust valve being vertically spaced from said diaphragm, an air exhaust path for said exhaust chamber comprising an air outlet in said exhaust chamber communicating with said cap openings, said exhaust chamber being otherwise totally enclosed against the discharge of exhaust air..."
This might make it clearer, if I've got it right:
An air exhaust chamber is cast into the regulator body which is fitted with a flapper valve. The valve is inserted through the exhaust horn and into the exhaust chamber [vertically spaced from the main diaphragm]. Exhaust air is routed through the [otherwise completely enclosed] exhaust chamber and out of the regulator body via the single outlet cast into the body. The exhaust air enters into the space created by the main diaphragm and regulator cover. Slots in the cover allow the exhaust air to be discharged into the water.
I used brackets to denote descriptions I think are unnecessary and confusing, but might be required.
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 21, 2023 12:08:43 GMT -8
The drawing is of the bronze body regulator. Note the duckbill in the exhaust horn! I wonder if the originals were ever sold with a db? The text is ridiculous, woefully lacking in punctuation and with its repetition of the word "said". Is that traditional? I'm trying to figure out the exhaust description. I think the "cap openings" are the slots in the cover. "...an air exhaust chamber formed in said body, an exhaust valve in said exhaust chamber, said exhaust valve being vertically spaced from said diaphragm, an air exhaust path for said exhaust chamber comprising an air outlet in said exhaust chamber communicating with said cap openings, said exhaust chamber being otherwise totally enclosed against the discharge of exhaust air..." This might make it clearer, if I've got it right: An air exhaust chamber is cast into the regulator body which is fitted with a flapper valve. The valve is inserted through the exhaust horn and into the exhaust chamber [vertically spaced from the main diaphragm]. Exhaust air is routed through the [otherwise completely enclosed] exhaust chamber and out of the regulator body via the single outlet cast into the body. The exhaust air enters into the space created by the main diaphragm and regulator cover. Slots in the cover allow the exhaust air to be discharged into the water. I used brackets to denote descriptions I think are unnecessary and confusing, but might be required. That small section of the sentence got them around the Cousteau patent. I think the whole description was so vague and ultimately unreadable so as to cover just about any regulator produced afterwards. I think this is why Healthways ultimately bought the DivAir, to get that patent under their belt. It covers just about all regulators which deviate from the Cousteau patent. John
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Post by spirou on Oct 21, 2023 13:05:03 GMT -8
Hello,
So as my mother language is french, and don't use often English, except here, the felling that the patented was difficult to understand, was a reality.
I follow John in his analysis, the patented from Cousteau was a problem for many who want conceived breathing apparatus for diving. Finally Dacor and Healthways find other interesting ways.
Respectfully
Fred
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Post by vance on Oct 21, 2023 14:05:03 GMT -8
The drawing is of the bronze body regulator. Note the duckbill in the exhaust horn! I wonder if the originals were ever sold with a db? The text is ridiculous, woefully lacking in punctuation and with its repetition of the word "said". Is that traditional? I'm trying to figure out the exhaust description. I think the "cap openings" are the slots in the cover. "...an air exhaust chamber formed in said body, an exhaust valve in said exhaust chamber, said exhaust valve being vertically spaced from said diaphragm, an air exhaust path for said exhaust chamber comprising an air outlet in said exhaust chamber communicating with said cap openings, said exhaust chamber being otherwise totally enclosed against the discharge of exhaust air..." This might make it clearer, if I've got it right: An air exhaust chamber is cast into the regulator body which is fitted with a flapper valve. The valve is inserted through the exhaust horn and into the exhaust chamber [vertically spaced from the main diaphragm]. Exhaust air is routed through the [otherwise completely enclosed] exhaust chamber and out of the regulator body via the single outlet cast into the body. The exhaust air enters into the space created by the main diaphragm and regulator cover. Slots in the cover allow the exhaust air to be discharged into the water. I used brackets to denote descriptions I think are unnecessary and confusing, but might be required. That small section of the sentence got them around the Cousteau patent. I think the whole description was so vague and ultimately unreadable so as to cover just about any regulator produced afterwards. I think this is why Healthways ultimately bought the DivAir, to get that patent under their belt. It covers just about all regulators which deviate from the Cousteau patent. John I'm not sure how it could have gotten them around the patent. Isn't the flapper valve itself the object of the Cousteau patent, not how it was placed in the regulator? The placement doesn't seem significantly different than the HW Scuba exhaust system with a DB. I thought the baffle effect of the DivAir exhaust box was the way they avoided using a DB....
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Post by nikeajax on Oct 21, 2023 15:16:14 GMT -8
5.30 am wake up, I go down to the cellar, and I try to hook the DivAir on my twin, 🤬 his reserve mechanism is on the way when I try on the center valve ( there is my the right shoulder assembly on the tank)🤬.Finally I hook on the second valve (right side), tanks are 500psi, and... ,... it leaks slowly. I must open and look inside...to be continue😃. But I must go dive first, I must find a reg. Cheer's Fred This sounds like when I got my 1956 Buick back in 1989! "Sleep, I don't need no sleep!" JB
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cg43
Senior Diver
Posts: 90
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Post by cg43 on Oct 21, 2023 15:34:13 GMT -8
Hello
The patent has three parts . First it is an good and easy to understand description what they build and how it works . The reserve is designed by limitation of the tilt angel fot lever no. 34 The opening for the exhaust air is very close to the center of the inhale diaphragm .
Second is the description how to make tha switched reserve by choking the hight pressur bevor the first stage . Attention !!! They never build this , it's only an easy to build possibility . The drawings therefor are fig. 10 and fig. 8 The description and drawings are good .
What follows after "What is claimed is :" is funny to read . My be a lawyer can understand this . But if you want to fix an DiveAir . don't wast your time with it . My guess is that they want to make it difficult for other companies to build something similar .
Greetings Rainer
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cg43
Senior Diver
Posts: 90
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Post by cg43 on Oct 21, 2023 16:44:48 GMT -8
Hello Vance
As I know it's the position of the exhause valve close to the inhale diaphragm that's the Cousteau/Gagnan patent .
For me close is if the sum of the both cracking pressures in water colum is less then the geometrical distance .
The DivAir may be on the border line , and anyway a court can see it different or both ways .
In ordinary diving position back up I see no need for an exhause valve on the DiveAir . Back down (and turning) there should be no freeflow but water can enter if air leave the exhause system . There is no certainty that this water is removed during the next exhause . This question belongs to the divers who dive an DiveAir .
Greetings Rainer
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 21, 2023 17:57:11 GMT -8
Okay this is pretty basic, so let's examine the actual claims by Gagnan and Cousteau in their patent: Here are the drawings from this patent (# US2485039A) Aqua Lung Patent Diagram1 by John Ratliff, on Flickr Note the placement of the duckbill at the center of the diaphragm. Aqua Lung Patent Diagram2 by John Ratliff, on Flickr This is the drawing which actually shows the interals of the DA Aqualung regulator, again with the duckbill at the center of the diaphragm. Now, compare this to the description on the patent for the DivAir. John PS, also, Cousteau/Gagnan patented the use of the third cylinder as a “reserve” cylinder, thus dispensing with the need for any kind of gauge for the diver to know that the air was running out.
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Post by vance on Oct 22, 2023 8:33:49 GMT -8
It sounds like any exhaust valve positioned at the center of the main diaphragm would violate the patent. The Snark DH regs had the exhaust valve dead center. I suppose Nemrod didn't care or the Snark was later than the patent expiration (I don't think so!).
So were the Healthways and Sportsways mushroom valves off center just enough to wriggle out from under the patent?
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 22, 2023 11:57:11 GMT -8
It sounds like any exhaust valve positioned at the center of the main diaphragm would violate the patent. The Snark DH regs had the exhaust valve dead center. I suppose Nemrod didn't care or the Snark was later than the patent expiration (I don't think so!). So were the Healthways and Sportsways mushroom valves off center just enough to wriggle out from under the patent? I think that Healthways got by the Gagnan patent in two ways. First, the original Scuba had an entirely different exhaust system. IMG_0778 by John Ratliff, on Flickr This original Scuba regulator had an exhaust which was in the main case, and used air pressure to seal the diaphragm against the horn. The second generation had a mushroom valve, not a duckbill (specified in the Gagnan patent) that was also off-center. IMG_1423 by John Ratliff, on Flickr IMG_1422 by John Ratliff, on Flickr I think using a mushroom valve also invalidated the Gagnan patent, as what we know as a duckbill was actually specified in their patent. I had a real problem with Bryan at VDH when I pointed out in one of the early postings here that if the duckbill was not placed directly in the center of the diaphragm, and the DA Aquamaster or RAM were finely tuned, it would leak air in certain positions. I suggested that the regulator may be detuned to avert this problem if the shorter duckbills were all that were available. Bryan took extreme exception to my statement, saying that my post had caused some clients to think that he had detuned their regulator and my post had caused him problems. He took down all his posts here, and began the VDH forum on his site because of that. But I was just pointing out the obvious, and a problem with short duckbills that I had leak on me when my DA Aquamaster was finely tuned. John
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Post by vance on Oct 22, 2023 12:09:03 GMT -8
Bryan could be prickly.
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 22, 2023 12:17:10 GMT -8
Here is the thread that I posted this information on in 2004. I was subsequently banned from Bryan’s forums when he set his site up. vintagescuba.proboards.com/thread/265/advice-usd-aquamaster-air-leakJohn PS, the photos were posted on Photobucket, and since I did not pay them for an upgrade, they are no longer showing. I also cannot get into Photobucket without paying them something.
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Post by vance on Oct 22, 2023 14:43:53 GMT -8
While Bryan could be difficult, we can't forget his contributions to vintage diving. I hope others will step up and take his place supplying the parts we need in bulk.
I'm not going to do it. I'm too old for that mess, so I'm sticking to turning out individual parts for myself and board members. I'm not looking to go into bidniss.
VDH is history, Dan at vintagescubasupply.com seems to be done, so it looks like Rob is the only major player around! There are a couple of others, like Allan of Vintagescubastuff.com who are making stuff like labels and harnesses, but mostly, service parts are going begging.
We should start a thread listing all of the online resources for vintage gear!
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 22, 2023 16:50:46 GMT -8
While I did not buy the Phoenix regulator (I already had my Mossback Mk 3), I did buy a DSV mouthpiece from Bryan at VDH, which was a great addition to my hose loop. I used it on my Hybrid Healthways Scuba regulator, and I have placed it onto my Trieste II hose loop a couple of years ago, where it has stayed. It is a great addition to my Trieste II. IMG_1456 by John Ratliff, on Flickr I love being able to turn off the flow by simply turning the mouthpiece. I was so impressed with this Dive Surface Mouthpiece (DSM) that I made a video about it. Note the old, oval Nemrod silicone mask (with a tape lens retainer; the plastic one broke) and the Duck Feet fins. I used the DSV mouthpiece to great effect in this swimmer assist. Anyone know whether it is still availableL The DSV mouthpiece would be a great addition to a DivAir regulator. John
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