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Post by Fed up Chuck on Feb 11, 2006 12:45:53 GMT -8
Nemrod your dealing with ignorant people. Dont go back to their place of business. I have tanks that are more than 50 years old that I have visualed myself, and use them all the time. They arent hydro'd, but I dont care. If there is no rust, or decay, why mess with it. i have some tanks that are as clean and bright as the day they were made. Spend all that money heck no! Thats the advantage to having your own compressor. You dont have to put up with all their money grubbing visual routine each year. I pump the usual 10% over fill and have NO problems.
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Post by SeaRat on Feb 11, 2006 14:05:55 GMT -8
I'm taking a quick break from studying Here's the Steel 80 specs from the 1977 USD Commercial Catelog: 3.8 pounds positive when empty, 2.2 pounds negative when full. This would be approximately the same as the steel 71.2 (I looked in several references, and also could not find it). Add the weight of the valve, bands/backpack, regulator, and it would be approximately neutral when empty in sea water (slightly heavier in fresh water). John
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Post by Captain on Feb 11, 2006 14:12:41 GMT -8
I agree with Chuck and do the same. I just bought a set of twin 50 that are like new inside and out with the original manufacture's hydro date of 1963. They have never been re-hydroed. Why should I get them hydroed. They didn't get weaker lying in a closet for 43 years. Time for you to get a compressor and not be subjected to 20 year old dive shop monkeys.
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Post by Ron Hearn on Feb 11, 2006 18:47:55 GMT -8
Fed up Chuck
Its the law to have tanks hydro tested every five years. seeing no rust or deca does not mean a tank is safe. I think you are the ignorant one and the dive shop is correct in trying to get rid of older tanks because Its the responsibility they don't want if an old tank blows under there helm. If you take the tank to a proper Hydro station were the tanks can by hydro tested, tumbled if needed and visualy inspected by a DOT certified technician than OK! the tank may be used again but eventually all tanks get put to bed because of metal fatigue.
Ron Hearn
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Post by SeaRat on Feb 11, 2006 19:58:35 GMT -8
Ron is correct about that; the tanks must be hydroed, even if you fill them yourself. The DOT law concerns interstate transport, but virtually every state has similar laws about pressurized vessels. You could get by without hydroing, IF nothing happens. But if that tank blows up in the back of your truck, and blows a piece over that hits another car, you could have some problems. This has actually happened, and caused a lot of litigation. It is worth the price to get the tanks hydroed. If you do the filling, than you can do the visuals yourself.
John
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Creed
Pro Diver
Posts: 189
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Post by Creed on Feb 11, 2006 22:29:59 GMT -8
I cannot find my material I had on bouyancy of steel 72 and 38/45/50 cylinders. I am mostly concerned with the good ol'72 right now. Does anyone have the figures for empty and full? I argue with the local shops constantly. I keep asking them to grab any old cylinders and sell them to me and they keep destroying them and insisting the the Faber 72 is a replacement. Thanks. James You know, James, it's my fault that you can't find any good 72's in this area. I snap 'em up. In fact, Rob at Adventure Sports has a 1/2" neck 72 sitting in the back for me right now. I plan on getting it hydro'd the beginning of next month. It has one of those funky angular Voit valves on it. Actually, you know what we should do? We should put a couple bucks together, and put ads in all of the local small town papers, looking for old scuba or navy dive equipment. I bet we hit paydirt.
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Creed
Pro Diver
Posts: 189
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Post by Creed on Feb 11, 2006 22:44:03 GMT -8
I agree with Chuck and do the same. I just bought a set of twin 50 that are like new inside and out with the original manufacture's hydro date of 1963. They have never been re-hydroed. Why should I get them hydroed. They didn't get weaker lying in a closet for 43 years. Time for you to get a compressor and not be subjected to 20 year old dive shop monkeys. Actually, they do get weaker. Just not (under most conditions) noticably. If not aggravated by corrosion or a flaw in the wall, this may take decades or even centuries, but it is happening. If there IS a stress crack forming, you want it caught pronto. Better to fail that beautiful vintage tank and drill it, than take a ride on a 2000psi rocket. I'll take chances with older regs, especially when testing them out, but I go by the book with the tanks. If you have stupid monkeys manning your LDS, find a local hydro facility that will do it for you. After all, that's what the LDS does. They do a VIP as part of the hydro. I'd even pop the $200 or so to become a PSI certified tech(http://www.psicylinders.com/) and do your own VIPs. Then, if the LDS monkeys give you heck, pop out the PSI card. You may still have to fill your own tanks(after all, they have the right to refuse service), but you won't be endangering yourself and others at the same time. That said, I'm both lucky and unlucky, because most of the people who man the closest dive shop to me are ski bums who at best sell scuba equipment on the side. They don't know enough to question my tanks. That's good, because I don't have a desk jockey trying to sell me a new tank to replace them. It's bad, because they don't know to read the pressure, and pump them routinely to over 3000psi. When I have them filled, I have to tell them to watch the pressure.
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Post by Captain on Feb 12, 2006 8:34:37 GMT -8
Privately owned and filled tanks for personal use do not come under DOT regulations.
"Commerce" is the magic word in the regulations. Captain
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Post by Captain on Feb 12, 2006 9:36:28 GMT -8
I have been filling my own thanks for all most 40 years. All are steel 72's or 50's. I don't over fill but I do fill to the + rating. Every year the valves come off and I inspect the inside. The life of these tanks is indefinate provided they are kept dry inside, not exposed to fire, not over pressured or abused. I worked for 32 years in an industry that used many commercial gas cylinders and I liked to go around checking the original hydro dates on cylinder to see how old the were. I have found commercial steel oxygen tanks still in commercial use that were originally made in the 1890's. I didn't think they even made cylinder at that time and I would think the steels of the 1890's were not as good as the steel of 40 years ago. A steel tank sitting in a closet will not crack or become weaker in my life time or 10 other life times to the point of failure unless it is full of water, the closet is full of water or the house the closet is in burns down. Because of ignorance many dive shop refuse to fill tanks that have current hydros and VIPs just because of age.
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Post by Ron Hearn on Feb 12, 2006 16:22:46 GMT -8
Tom
We all have vintage gear that we enjoy using today and I for one hate it when other divers tell me that my old gear is dangerous and should be shelved. I believe regardless of your past practises and beliefs there are now laws set in place regarding the use and maintenance of high pressure cylinders and there just isn't any way around it. You must follow these laws that protect you and me from the possibility of an older tank blowing do to metal fatigue. A full tank that has sat in a dry place for 20 years still undergoes pressure fatigue from stress and must be tested. There has been plenty of stories of older steel tanks blowing up in both he United States and and Canada hurting allot of people, I for one would rather swallow my 40 year pride and just get it tested.
Ron
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2006 17:24:40 GMT -8
Fellas,
I seem to remember back in the 70's an article on the longivity of steel 72's......the article stated that "if the tank was filled to working pressure once a day every day, the tank would last an estimated 271 years before hydro failure"
That's a long time.........these things can sit in a closet, as stated above from one of the guys, "under working pressure" with a clean interior "no moisture" and still be usable for many years past the lifetime of anyone here on this forum, and perhaps their childrens children.
Yeah the industry is distroying them each day due to ignorance..how does one deal with ignorance?.....and right now there doesn't seem to be anyone for sure on this forum who can positivity document the laws concerning privately own scuba tanks and their handling. So what does one do?
I'd say "why argue about it? If you come across one for a good price, buy it and store it for some member down the road who will need one......if you have a compressor great......if you don't, be picky on the LDS's......if you can give a reading on the law's....verse, chapter and title..do it..........but our concern should be the preservation of these tanks, not our ego's........
And oh by the way.........I think Faber makes a steel 72.......but not sure about it's size.........
Nemrod........I believe a US manfactured steel 72 is about 6.8 lbs negative when full and around -3.6 or something close to that when empty......
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Post by Captain on Feb 12, 2006 19:47:31 GMT -8
Ron. If you can find one documented instance of a steel tank failing for "no other reason" than age related metal fatigue please post it. I read about these supposed failures all the time but I have never seen one documented case that said age related metal fatigue was the primary failure cause. There are always other factors involved, rust, fire, abuse. continous gross over pressure, etc. I seem to recall the design life expectancy from a 3AA chrome mobibdium steel cylinder is 10,000+ fill cycles.
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Post by Ron Hearn on Feb 12, 2006 20:29:15 GMT -8
Nemrod
If DOT is stamped on the cylinder it does fall under the law. I own and run a hydro staion part time and believe me its the law. If your old unhydro tested scuba tank is being transported in your car to a dive location it does fall under the law, if your old tank blows up and hurts some one other than your self the law will examine your tank to see if it was with in standards of the law. This is not rocket science it is a matter of just being a safe diver and not being so cheap as to not pend the money to have your tanks tested. I can't imagine some one buying an old tank off of Ebay and standing in front of it at home filling it with there own compressor wondering if it will blow or not. Why take the chance.
Ron
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Creed
Pro Diver
Posts: 189
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Post by Creed on Feb 12, 2006 21:33:26 GMT -8
I agree with Chuck and do the same. I just bought a set of twin 50 that are like new inside and out with the original manufacture's hydro date of 1963. They have never been re-hydroed. Why should I get them hydroed. They didn't get weaker lying in a closet for 43 years. Time for you to get a compressor and not be subjected to 20 year old dive shop monkeys. Actually, they do get weaker. Just not (under most conditions) noticably. If not aggravated by corrosion or a flaw in the wall, this may take decades or even centuries, but it is happening. If there IS a stress crack forming, you want it caught pronto. Better to fail that beautiful vintage tank and drill it, than take a ride on a 2000psi rocket. I'll take chances with older regs, especially when testing them out, but I go by the book with the tanks. If you have stupid monkeys manning your LDS, find a local hydro facility that will do it for you. After all, that's what the LDS does. They do a VIP as part of the hydro. I'd even pop the $200 or so to become a PSI certified tech(http://www.psicylinders.com/) and do your own VIPs. Then, if the LDS monkeys give you heck, pop out the PSI card. You may still have to fill your own tanks(after all, they have the right to refuse service), but you won't be endangering yourself and others at the same time. That said, I'm both lucky and unlucky, because most of the people who man the closest dive shop to me are ski bums who at best sell scuba equipment on the side. They don't know enough to question my tanks. That's good, because I don't have a desk jockey trying to sell me a new tank to replace them. It's bad, because they don't know to read the pressure, and pump them routinely to over 3000psi. When I have them filled, I have to tell them to watch the pressure. I just reread this, and realized that I sounded like I was lecturing. Like I am the one who should be lecturing. Sorry if it came off that way. I guess I've been hanging out on scubaboard too much recently. It seems to me that the safest bet is to a) go to an independent hydro facility, not a scuba shop, and b) fill it yourself when possible. That way, you don't have an idiot trying to condemn a perfectly good tank for no reason, and you cover your *ss in regards to the DOT(in whatever way those laws apply).
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Post by mossback on Feb 13, 2006 7:03:46 GMT -8
I'd need to see where a gov stamp is still valid after the article becomes the property of a private individual..
My 1911 government model 45 is stamped Property of US Government, yet it was sold off by UNCLE SAM and now is my property.......it does not belong to are under jurisdiction of the US Army..........
Need to see government DOT regulations on this matter....
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