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Post by SeaRat on Jul 3, 2006 8:17:44 GMT -8
Well, I guess I qualify for that ol'fogey status, so I'll give my perspective. The best cylinder/valve system I've found ever produced is the UDS-1 system. It had huge valve openings, which in turn allowed for huge flow rates. You can drain the whole system in just a few minutes if you hold the purge valve of both regulators (Calypso metal mouthpiece second stages) down. It is amazing to watch, and in use, you could breath it to a zero reading on the pressure guage and have only about 3 breaths left before there was resistance in the system to breathing.
Now, the UDS-1 was an integrated system, with the first regulator stage built into the valve manifold. It is also a single hose system. So how does this go into the 21st Century double hose regulator? Let me explain.
I know that Nemrod doesn't like the New Mistral regulator. But it has a feature that no other two-stage double hose regulator has--you can separate the first and second stages. We have discussed the regulator positioning situation, and Nemrod has expounded on how he does not like the New Mistral's hoses (big, buoyant, uncomfortable, etc.).
Numerous people on these forums have stated that the New Mistral's case is "ugly," that doesn't fit well on doubles, and doesn't look esthetically like the traditional double hose. But we've already documented that all the case designs so far produced have problems with the ideal "venturi," as they hit the case to some degree. Could it be that the New Mistral designers not only were looking to save money, but to re-design the double hose into an aerodynamic second stage that would pass a huge amount of air, regardless of the esthetics?
What would it be like if I were to buy this regulator, separate the second stage from the first stage, and mate it to the UDS-1 in a chest-mounted system. I think it would overcome the problems that have been cited it this thread concerning double hose regulators in general, and the New Mistral in particular. The buoyancy of the hoses would not pull the mouthpiece away from the mouth, but into it. The large, buoyant hoses would be on the diver's chest, not flying in the water. And, the hoses would be long enough (current hoses appear to be almost too short--I put them onto my single 72, with the harness set up for by Trieste II, and the hoses almost did not reach around). When I was in the LDS, I test-breathed on the New Mistral, and that regulator will really pass a lot of air in its factory configuration.
Set up this way, I think I have a candidate for the 21st Century Standard for a double hose regulator in the New Mistral-chest mounted second stage and the UDS-1, without having to re-design a thing. It only requires re-thinking, and making the negatives of the New Mistral into positives, then mating it to the best tank/manifold system ever produced.
John
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Post by nemrod on Jul 3, 2006 10:01:29 GMT -8
Well, been moving the back acerage but I am retreating from the heat.
Well, I think everything you have said is good thinking and I am an ol'fogey too.
But here is the deal, I have spent a lifetime in the water getting stuff of my chest area. I hate anything in front of me, I even played around with the Hawiian tank rigs to get the straps out from in front of me. I, and I am just speaking for myself, do not want anything in front of me or attached in anyway to my chest area.
The New Mistral, if I owned one and I will not, I would machine or have made an adapter to allow a conventional hose and mouthpiece. I think that alone would cure most of my dislike for the headbanger.
I have spent the last three evenings working on my scooter and cleaning and tuning all of my regualotrs for Portage and Wazee so that at least one of them might work. Base standard, after a pool test for each, I must say, if there is standard it is the RAM. Put in the new blue seats from Bryan, his rebuild kits, trimmed the new pins to length, set my IP at 145, polished the buttons and in general fussed over them. Did the same with the DA (as much as possible). No matter how much I try, I cannot get it to equal the RAM. Now, trust me, it breaths fine and several people have used it as a loaner at SDIII and mentioned how nice it breaths, well, yeah, it does.
I have a younger friend who I have gotten into scuba. While away on a trip (not scuba) he bought some gear including a new Legend. Wow, it breaths nice and I am going to buy one I think. Thing is though, there is something, not quie defineable. It has very low effort but after using it I cannot truly say that the WOB is any better than my super tuned RAMs.
Therefore--premature it may be--the new base standard will be the Phoenix nozzle equipped Royal Aqua Master. Like the diamond frame bicycle, somethings were so good and so right that any improvments are exceedingly difficult.
The problem with integrated systems is that the dive world is travel oriented. You cannot bring them with you--easily. Other than that I love the concept, the look, the function but they don't rent them in Cozumel.
Another future item, with rebreathers being such a coming thing then maybe there might be some type of integrated hybrid system. Still open circuit and primarily scuba but with the ability to mix gas on the fly so as to maximise bottom time and minimize decompresion. Think of a shell type system, like the UDS with two air bottles and two "gas" bottles, one 02 and the other for O2 or another gas. A computer with a decompression gradient program would modify your gas mix on the fly (er--swim). Electronic readouts would provide you your time, depth, time remaining and suggested course of action. As you moved shallow and came to your last deco stop at 10 feet the computer would shift to a high O2 mix. The computer in the integrated system would wireless link to your wrist computer so your surface intervals and dive tracking would be independent of the system in the event you went to conventional scuba or nitrox scuba on your next dive.
OK, the sonar mask, would not look like conventional mask, it might be a hydrodynamic helmet that fairs with the integrated system with a light, and a sonar scanner and built in mouthpiece. Thus with your integrated dive system and sonar hydrodynamic mask and your DPV you could wisk smoothly through the water at greater speeds than now possible.
Maybe, mabe not. Nemrod
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Creed
Pro Diver
Posts: 189
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Post by Creed on Jul 3, 2006 10:17:59 GMT -8
"Looks like physics has won again short of some fancy device, that James probably has developed and is keeping secret" I don't know, better look to Luis for the secret skunk works, my shop is mostly full of bits of aluminum and pieces of Lycoming. "Lets hear more about those yellow hoses! " Only thing I want to hear is where and how much!!!!!! I think me and Luis discussed via phone once using a spring to preload or balance ambient to allow the back mounted regulator to respond as if it were at the same pressure position as the lungs. I think this might work but is not an ideal solution and would predispose the regulator to freeflow possibly controllable via a vane or adjustable preload from zero to freeflow condition so it could be adjusted to fit the need. I wager a bet that the next big jump in diving regulator design will be electronic/computer control. You may doubt me now but just wait and see!! A programable chip with a learning function could totally repalce the majority of mechanical diaphrams and levers and pistons and springs. About a year ago Mares was going on about their new to be released gear would be revolutionary---ho--hum--yeah right. BUT, I do think some enterprising company is probably working on this now. Electronic digital controlled regulators and see in zero viz "sonar" masks are coming --eventually. Don't believe me, I just bought a Humminbird 987c side scan sonar for my boat. It "sees" underwater producing picture like results. This technology can be adapted to a LCD screen in your dive mask. Will you ol'fogeys go for it--well---I still stand on the edge of the razer, one foot in the modern world and one in the past. You know your old when the past is all you think about, I think about the future (and hope I will be there--lol) and I think vintage could have an impact on the future of diving equipment design. I think that my "FADEC" controlled regulator might more easily resemble a double hose than the cumbersome two piece hub cap in the mouth single hose. A breathing robot that monitors your demands, factors in the ambient conditions, knows your typical requirments and can respond instantly--that is the future base standard. Nemrod So, what's the problem with making a prototype? A pressure sensor, an inclinometer, an electronic valve and a basic stamp to tie it together.
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Post by nemrod on Jul 3, 2006 10:39:56 GMT -8
Well, I need about 50,000 dollars I think should do the trick. Thing is I fork money over to Uncle Sam by the wheelbarrow load so we can send the armies of the empire off to conquer oil rich provinces while we rot away from within---exactly like Rome---if I were reincarneted I am sure this would all be de ja vue to me--so alas---I don't have 50,000 dollars to spend on my integrated dive system.
Oh, I also need the time, but, please feel free to use my ideas and cut m in on the profits--lol. Yes, all of the technology, parts, concepts and programming is obtainable and possibly off the shelf. I think it might even be possible to build a piezo type inertial guidence system that would key from GPS while on the surface to provide navigation underwater. This is the 21st century, I have a TV that hangs on a wall, my car has a computer and I can speak to anyone in the world with a portable one inch thick laptop computer. The new base standard is computer/electronics and the dive industry is way behind the curve on this. An integrated system with gas mixing capability is entirely possible. I have named it the "SafeSystem" . Creed, we could patent the idea--maybe.
Whatever operating system we use I would prefer it not be Windows based. Have you seen the comic where the pilot is on final IFR and the screen goes blank and then pops up-- "your subsription is due" or such as that? I don't want my computer to lock on me at 160 feet.
James
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Post by luis on Jul 3, 2006 14:16:32 GMT -8
Well your integrated diving system needs a small set of rigid ballast tanks to be complete. The ballast tanks would automatically take in water or pump it out to compensate for any thermal insulation compression (as a function of depth) and the weight change due to the gas consumed during the dive. With this computer controlled ballast tanks you will always be neutral, at any depth and at any time through the dive. You would swim in all three dimensions like a fish.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2006 16:49:03 GMT -8
You guys will feel pretty silly at 160 feet and your battery pack takes a powder......... I guess I am an ol'fogy also, I prefer the tried and true mechanical devices.......my cameras are mechanical, not just my Nikono's but my Olympia and Petre also..........just have them rebuilt every 20 years.....I am content with the mechanical regulators also......Oceanic has a new one that compesates for depth automaticly, the thing is patented also (Linda, you need a spell checker on this site).....so what...don't know how it works but sounds like a neat idea for a non-existant problem for single hoses...........now if it could be adapted for a RAM or other double....humm? For right now there isn't a new double hose on the market that fits the classic description of a double hose.........that's my goal to see if it is viable......if not, well I still have three RAMs and a DA to use.
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Post by nemrod on Jul 3, 2006 22:50:19 GMT -8
"For right now there isn't a new double hose on the market that fits the classic description of a double hose.........that's my goal to see if it is viable......if not, well I still have three RAMs and a DA to use."
Well, it may be viable but the window is closing on mechanical devices like it or not. The computer generation is here and they feel better with electronic machines.
The battery will take some doing but is not out of reach. While much of my going on is fantasy for now it will not be, I will stick with my statement, the coming standard is computer controlled robotic integrated systems that can mix gas on the fly and see through low viz.
Developing a mechanical double hose that can outpeform a Royal or a Trieste is going to be a tall order. Is it possible, yes. Of course, I think the only way it can be done is with servo assist. My main fascination with the servo assist is that it would mostly remove body position sensitivity from the double hose which is in my opinion the main hurdle to getting performance totally on par with a top line single hose and modern divers spoiled on such transparency.
Nemrod
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Post by Captain on Jul 4, 2006 6:07:26 GMT -8
I am with mossback, somehow fancy electronics around salt water make me nervous when my life may depend on it. In the boat I recently restored I stuck with a simple and easily fixed point ignition system and carburator.
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Post by JES on Jul 4, 2006 6:54:28 GMT -8
Speaking of integrated diving systems, here's a post from VDH in which Phil Nuytten describes the Exosuit that he is developing; Sure it's electronic, but it's absolutely incredible stuff!
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Post by SeaRat on Jul 4, 2006 7:46:08 GMT -8
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