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Post by Danny D on May 14, 2003 23:18:48 GMT -8
I was just wondering what everyone's favorite or ideal Vintage Regulator and tank set-up is?
Thanks, Danny D
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Post by Chuck Tenge on May 15, 2003 15:41:58 GMT -8
My favorite ismy U.S. Divers plastic Bac Pac from the early 60's. It has the web straps, and quick release pulls. My favorite regulator is my late Royal, coming in second is my Mistral. My favorite mask is my 1965 Atlantis, and I still use my old rocket fins. Have a great dive today. Chuck
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Post by Terry on May 15, 2003 19:20:56 GMT -8
Hi Dan: My favorite setup is my Voit Navy Two Hoser on a pair of twin aluminum 50's. I also use this setup with my Oceanic Chute II BC which will allow twin tanks. Mike Nelson never had it that good! I also use a banjo adaptor with this so I'm able to hook up my SPG. Terry Stevens
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Scott
Regular Diver
Posts: 18
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Post by Scott on May 20, 2003 19:11:13 GMT -8
For the truly vintage dives, I go with my '57 USD 71.2 with R-valve, paired with my Aqua Lung DX reg (Over Pressure Breathing). But my ideal vintage rig? My Scubapro Scubasystem unit with steel 71.2 tank and DCAR valve, paired with my Scubapro Pilot/Mk VII reg. Its Scubapro in all it's egotistical glory: Back-mounted, weight-integrated bouyancy in a James Bond-style shell, with the best regulator Scubapro (or anyone, for that matter) ever produced. Just too cool for the pool.
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Post by admin on May 25, 2003 13:41:43 GMT -8
I think the US Divers Royal AquaMaster was probably the best breathing two hose regulator ever made and I enjoy using my late model round label one with the 3000 psi yolk. I've also upgraded it by adding a modern Conshelf high pressure telfon seat. I also have a "Frankenstein" two hose regulator that I made up out of some of the best parts from 3 different regulators. I started off with a Voit Trieste- an excellent regulator and also one of the very few two hose regulators with HP and LP ports. But the Trieste always seemed to breathe a little hard and I figured it had to be because of the smaller than normal diaphragm. And so a took the Trieste regulator body, replaced the HP seat with a modern Conshelf one and added a US DiversMistral top box. This allowed me to use the full size 4 1/4 inch diaphragm. I used a Nemrod Snark III diaphragm because they seem to be thinner and more flexible than the US Divers. The Snark III also had another innovation that I've always liked- they use a large mushroom exhaust valve instead of the duckbill exhaust valve. And so I added this Nemrod bottom box to my monster and clamped the boxes together with a USD clamp ring. US Divers hoses and mouthpiece were added and now I have a very distinct and excellent breathing two hose regulator. One off these days, I will have it all rechromed so that everything matches and I may even make a new label for it...... maybe Trieste III? Dan
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Post by Dennis on May 26, 2003 15:03:56 GMT -8
On 5/24/03 my brother and I did a dive in a fresh water spring with a maximum depth of 25-feet. We tried three regulators. A newly overhauled Voit 50-Fathom (one stage), a newly overhauled US Divers DA AquaMaster (two stage), and an original, mint condition 1966 Dacor R-4 (two stage, double-diaphragm). We started with the Voit and Dacor using tank 2000 psi tank pressures. I started with the Voit, my brother the Dacor. We swam for 15 minutes, then switched tanks/regulators and dove for another 25 minutes and ended with 400 psi. We then got fresh tanks charged to 2500 psi and used the USD AquaMaster and the Dacor R-4. We dove for 20-minutes and then swapped sets and dove for 15 more minutes. Ending pressure was 1500 psi.
My impressions from diving the R-4 are thus: 1. Because of the Double-Diaphragm design, the Dacor has a deeper cross section. I was not able to slide my back plate as high with it as the other regulators because the handle of the back plate bumped up against the bottom of the regulator. This was on a 72. Maybe with an 80 it would have worked. The Voit and USD had more slender cases and they fit behind the handle of my back plate. So, I was able to wear the Voit and USD regulators low, between my shoulder blades. I had to wear the Dacor up higher, behind my neck. I prefer to wear the regulators low, as this seems the best position to allow for easy air flow.
2. The Voit and USD have softer hoses. The Dacor hoses are more rigid. In the water, this was a non-issue. The Voit and USD hoses floated when full of air and underwater, therefore becoming to a degree more rigid. While wearing the Dacor, I was able to turn my head through its entire range of movement with no noticeable restriction because of the hose being stiff.
3. All three regulators were tuned perfectly. Each would easily begin to free flow a substantial volume of air when the mouth piece was lifted just slightly above the horizontal.
4. For ease of inhalation, there seemed no appreciable difference between any of these regulators. Despite major design differences of one-stage, two-stage, and two-stage double-diaphragm, the determining factor for ease of breathing with all of these regulators was the position of the diver. Whether head pointing up or down, and whether lying horizontal face up or face down, made a bigger difference in inhalation effort than did the regulator type or brand. Exhalation was mostly effortless with all three, with the Dacor R-4 seeming to have a slight resistance in some positions.
5. For overall breathing effort, all of the double-hoses required more breathing effort than would a newer, good quality single hose regulator. That being said, none of the regulators breathed so poorly as to interfere with the enjoyment of the dive. On the contrary, my brother and I quickly became used to them and had a lot of fun zooming along the underwater slopes. It was also very easy to get used to having all the bubbles exhausting behind my head. When I faced against a strong flow of water from a spring vent, the double hoses did not free flow as would a single hose with the water current pressing against the second-stage diaphragm. We were favorably impressed with all the regulators.
6. We breathed the tank pressure down to 400 psi. The regulators were not “balanced” but I did not notice an increase in inhalation effort as the tank pressure became lower. Perhaps I might have had I been deeper or if the tank had been breathed lower.
7. The Dacor R-4 did develop a “squeak” during the dive on the second tank. It sounded like it was from the springs in the first stage and would make a noise on each inhalation. Perhaps the starting pressure of 2500 psi stressed the springs, but the sound did not become less as the tank pressure dropped to 1500 psi.
8. We had fun and want to try this some more!
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Post by jerry Lang on May 26, 2003 19:37:05 GMT -8
My favorite and easiest Breathing double hose is a Usd Mistral one stage with Voit Fifty Fathom Case,New Gray hoses and Voit mouthpiece. This regulator breathes at 1/2 " of water! I use this on My Usdivers 1960 double 38"s 1800 psi tanks. Currently I own about 130 Double hose regulators including A 25th anniversary Golden Royal Aquamaster, New Viking/Norseman regulator with octopus/bacpac and tank with all original paperwork and boxes. Jerry
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Post by Dennis on Jun 1, 2003 13:37:52 GMT -8
This is in reply to Scott's May 20th comment.
What is an R-valve? What is a DCAR valve? Scott, is there a way you can post a photo of the Scubapro Scubasystem unit with "back-mounted, weight-integrated bouyancy in a James Bond-style shell"? I'd like to see what that looks like.
Thanks, Dennis.
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Post by Dennis on Jun 2, 2003 13:13:10 GMT -8
I saw this on the web and thought that it was pretty good: **************************************** The Good Old Days 1968 or thereabouts Posted by Bill Childers on November 01, 1999 Not really a log entry, just reminiscing. Divers seem to be gear freaks, and in the late 60s to early 70s we were no exception. The valves were all of the "J" or reserve persuasion, and if it had a rubber knob it was looked upon with some disdain. We had no submersible gages (although I later bought the first one I ever saw). It never occurred to us that an additional second stage would be a good idea. However, we did have lots of knives, a few spear guns, extra masks and fins (I had five or six masks at one time and none were any good). I had the first depth gage in the bunch. It was an old ScubaPro capillary gage with no moving parts. I also had a compass that I wish I still had. It was wrist mounted and used a floating compass ball in a little bubble of plastic. No matter which way the thing was oriented, it worked. Buoyancy compensators hadn't even been thought of yet (so far as we knew). We just assumed that if you wore a wet suit, you would be buoyant on the surface and past a certain depth you would sink. This was the trade you had to make to stay warm. I saw a home made BC once. A guy had made two cylinders from plastic pipe and, using automotive hose clamps, attached them to the sides of his tank. They were open at the bottom, and he would use his regulator to partially fill them. When he needed the air out, he would simply point his head down and the air would run out the bottom. It was dangerous, but it worked (sort of). I seem to recall seeing a commercial product made similar to that. When the 'horse collar' came out I bought one. Today, we call it a snorkeling vest, but back then it was a BC. I had one and discovered their most serious weakness. There was no overpressure valve. If you inflated it (even partially) at depth and forgot to release some of the air on the way to the surface, it would explode. This can be very disconcerting. Cameras were available and about the size of today's video housings. Nemrod made the most popular. It was a huge affair made from black plastic. It had lead weights in the housing to offset the buoyancy. I remember when Ikelite came out with a housing for the 110 camera and folks bought them by the ton. They came with a waterproof cigarette box. I know people who would come up and float on the surface just to have a smoke, then go back down. Spear guns were easily obtainable and quite well made. I had two, myself. You had a few choices in tanks. The old CO2 bottles that had been cleaned out and converted for SCUBA use, legitimate 72 cubic foot tanks, and an enormous 100 cubic foot "cave tank" (of these, I only saw one, but they were available). The CO2 bottles filled to 1800 psi and the rest to 2250. Those CO2 bottles were sort of spooky. They were pretty thin and would float like a cork. The reducers in the neck didn't give anyone a sense of security either. The reserve valves seemed to be pretty reliable, as soon as you established where they would cut off. I have seen them cut off anywhere from 600 psi to 200 psi, with no two ever the same. I have inadvertently tripped mine during the dive and when I went to pull the reserve there was none. No real problem of course, but a lot of aggravation, and if you filled a tank with the lever in the up position it would ruin the mechanism. Back packs were pretty spartan. They varied from simple nylon harnesses that the tank slid into to molded plastic affairs. Some were small and flat, some were contoured and a couple even had a handle molded in. ScubaPro made a pretty snappy pack that had a cam operated quick change mechanism. It worked fairly well, but if your hand slipped off the cam you could lay your palm open on the edge of the steel band. The straps that held the tank to you were just a little heavier than seat belt material. We did have tank boots, and quick release buckles. Regulators were another story. There were still quite a few dual hose regs around and still being sold by several companies, USD, Dacor, Nemrod, Water Lung, and Healthways, to name a few. Actually, Healthways was pretty good equipment, if a bit primitive. The stuff breathed fairly well (sort of) and was reliable. They made the only all plastic dual hose I ever saw, they also made a single stage dual hose (I had one and it nearly drowned me once). The single hose regulators (even the early ones) were vastly superior to the duals, but they didn't look nearly as neat and didn't Jacques Cousteau and Lloyd Bridges use duals? More than one diver (myself included) forsook the use of the single hose regulator for some time because the dual looked a lot cooler, and if you had a dual tank setup, you were king of the hill. Never mind that they were heavy and cumbersome. Never mind that the folks filling tanks hated them (they would over flow their cooling tanks). Never mind that they would allow you to stay submerged long enough to get into really serious trouble. They looked cool, especially with a dual hose regulator. Those old regulators were hard breathing and dangerous, but when it was all you had it was fantastic. Remember when Cousteau's wet suit had yellow strips of rubber glued over all the seams? Well, the hardware store owner was a pretty shrewd business man and ordered in a couple of rolls of this material and some wet suit glue. He couldn't keep the stuff in stock. Hemmed edges on the suit? Not hardly. In fact, very few suits even had a nylon surface inside. Most were bare neoprene inside and out. It took half a bottle of baby powder to get into one and two people to get you out. But they did have zippers. Some even had full length zippers on the legs. They leaked water like a sieve, and as a result were cold, but at least you could get in and out of one. You had to keep an eye on the shoulders too. The tank straps tended to cut the material and most of us wound up gluing strips of inner tube to the suit to protect it. Gear could be ordered from Sears and Roebuck, right out of the catalogue. Most of it was AMF Voit (all painted white if memory serves) and the first pair of fins I ever tried with SCUBA were the old blue molded 'duck feet' by Voit. They looked sort of like a strap fin, but the strap was an integral part of the fin and non-adjustible. They either fit or they didn't. They were as hard and inflexible as a piece of plywood. I did order a pair of fins and a wet suit from Sears, but that was all. There was something that bothered me about buying SCUBA gear from someone that made bowling balls. I understand that Mares made some of that gear, and if that is true, I would probably have been better off with it than what I had. The second stage of the regulators was interesting, though. It was nearly square. Somewhere along the line, ScubaPro came out with a regulator that buzzed when the tank pressure dropped to a certain point. They also had a valve with a sort of pressure gage in it. There was a machined slot in the back of the valve that had a pin in it. The height of the pin gave the diver a general idea of how much air was left. Gadgets abounded. There was the SMG (sub marine gun). This was a spear gun affair that used blanks to propel the spears. They worked real well, but were expensive to operate. They came in various sizes, including a pistol complete with holster. I understand that they are collector's items now, and the time when you could get the power loads is years past. Remember shark darts? This was a really heavy duty hypodermic needle on the end of a CO2 cartridge. When it was stabbed into a shark it would inflate the shark, and it would float helplessly to the surface. The darts could be hand held, or attached to the end of a spear. They may still be around for all I know. I always wondered what it would look like to see a diver trying to jab one of the hand held units into a 10 foot shark. Probably be pretty comical till he got gnawed on. Diving was a dangerous hobby back then and I suspect that the macho image it has had for years came from that danger. Lots of people died or were hurt unnecessarily. The gear was marginal and training nonexistent. It is with tongue in cheek that I call them the "Good Old Days". No one in their right mind would even consider going back to that time if they had to use the gear that was available. B.C. One other thing. I've written a lot about the good old days. If you enjoyed my story and would like more, please let me know. Bill C. www.scubaduba.com/uslog/messages/8.html
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Scott
Regular Diver
Posts: 18
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Post by Scott on Jun 2, 2003 20:12:23 GMT -8
"Vintage Valves 101" (in response to Dennis' questions)
The so-called "R" valve was distributed by U.S. Divers Corp. in the early to mid-1950s. The "R" may represent "reserve" or it may be an early USD catalogue reference letter, I'm not exactly sure which. Although it incorporated a reserve air feature, it was similar in appearance to the old post-style "K" valve popular during the same decade. Its also known as the "Suicide Valve," due to its reputed involvement in some early diver fatalities. Unlike the "J" and "K" valves, this one was operated by a knurled "push-knob" at the top of the post. To turn on your air, you pushed down on the top of the valve with your palm while simultaneously turning the knob 1/8" counter-clockwise. The knob popped up about 1/4" and your regulator received a full slam of high pressure air (pa-THUNK!!) To trip the reserve, you would (in theory) reach back behind your head and push down slightly on the knob again, adding another 1/8" counter-clockwise turn in the process. The knob would pop up another 1/4", making your reserve air available. Sound scary? You're darned tootin'! The safety problems associated with this type of valve necessitated its removal from the market and the subsequent adoption of the traditional "J" valve as its replacement. "R" valves proved especially deadly in overhead environments or any situation where a single blow to the push-knob would likely trip the reserve or instantly shut off your air, a 50/50 chance of either one or the other. That's cruel odds when you're supposedly depending on this simple thing to help keep you alive! In the 1980s, I worked as a repair tech at a local dive shop and would see these valves come in the door on occasion, still fitted atop old steel tanks that were 23 years overdue for hydro/visual. As a matter of policy, we would refuse to service any "R"-valved tank unless the customer agreed to let us change it out. After we'd locate a suitable replacement, we'd demill the old valve to prevent it's re-use, then toss in a scrap bin to recycle the brass. I managed to save two - one's now a paperweight and the other is mated to my '57 USD bottle for demonstration purposes and occasional use on vintage dives (I've gotten quite used to operating it and check it constantly on such dives). However, I would strongly discourage those less experienced divers/vintage collectors who may want to do the same! If you happen to come across one (and they still show up from time to time), keep it as a vintage scuba collectible and DO NOT install it on a serviceable cylinder, lest you or someone else end up a modern-day casualty of a poor 1950's design. Maybe some old-timers on this board can shed more light on the history of this particular valve. The one holding down my stack of bills is stamped "U.S. DIVERS CORP. LOS ANGELES CAL. MADE IN USA 9156 PATENTS PENDING" Below that is the date stamp of 3-56.
Next, the Scubapro D.C.A.R. Valve, or Depth Compensating Adjustable Reserve valve. A piece of classic Scubapro equipment, it was introduced in 1963 and was generally regarded as the top-of-the-line scuba tank valve for the next three decades. In essence, it was a tricked-out "J" valve that cost as much as a Scubapro 1st stage and required yearly service, even more so than the average "J". It featured a diver-adjustable reserve that could be set to trigger at 350 psig or 600 psig, depending on diving conditions and depth. It also had the feature of providing an automatic reserve air increase on deeper dives. The D.C.A.R. came equipped with a built-in "stem gauge" that gave you a rough idea of tank pressure at a glance. This gauge utilized a dynamic O-ring and needed a generous amount of silicone grease on the stem to keep it working properly. The gauge proved to be a common "failure" point on the D.C.A.R. Nothing dangerous really, just a pain in the @$$ to constantly be in the Scubapro stem gauge repair business at the dive shop. After about 12 to 14 months (especially if left unused), that stupid little gauge would start leaking without a sound and would go unnoticed until the day after your next air fill - the day you planned to go diving, of course. You had a full tank when you walked out of the dive shop, now its down to 200 psi in less than 12 hours. Other than that one annoying design flaw, the same one they also incorporated into their "K" valve, the D.C.A.R. was a rugged, high quality tank valve and was easy to tear down and service. Using oem/nos parts, I still rebuild one or two each year as a favor to several divers in this area still using them.
As for the Scubapro Scubasystem, I regret I'm unable to post a photo at the moment, but I'll describe as best I can. First, picture a back-mounted BC or "wing." Now picture that same wing encased in a hard plastic shell that surrounds your tank up to the point it rests on your back. The system's corrugated BC hose and lp inflator hose is worn over the left shoulder, just like a modern BC. The front of the Scubasystem "shell" is designed to hold a standard 71.2 cf cylinder by means of velcro straps. When viewed from the rear, the tank is invisible; only the tank valve and 1st stage shows. The system also incorporated two compartments, one on either side near your torso, that carried ballast (i.e. your weights). The ballast had the ability to be jettisoned by pulling on the velcro staps that secured the compartment doors. The Scubasystem's nautilus shell was very futuristic-looking for it's time (hence the "James Bond" comparison) and owes it's design to the U.S. Divers' UDS-I System and Watergill At-Pac - both of which were earlier designs based more or less on the same concept: The sleek, spacey, pack-type scuba systems we used to see Cousteau's Calypso team divers wearing on TV. The line of thinking in those days revolved around the idea of a modern recreational scuba unit that would incorporate all the essential life support equipment into one neat, stylish package or "system." Hence, the Scubapro "Scubasystem." The Scubasystem, along with the UDS-I and the At-Pac, were all manufactured in the early-to-mid-1970s. As far as I can recall, none survived production into the next decade. For a variety of reasons, chief among them a training agency backlash against back-mounted BCs ("They're killers! They float an unconcious diver face-down!!"), they were never quite embraced by the diving public and were quietly abandoned by their manufacturers only several years after their introduction (the BC problem was not attributed to the UDS-I, however, being that it was simply a triple-tank block housed within a plastic clam shell. It still required it's user to dive a horse-collar BC and traditional weight belt).
Hopefully I've answered your questions. If I've blown a historical fact or detail, someone kindly flame me to let me know. Now I wanna go get a beer and make me a big ol' sammich. Dive safe.
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Post by Dennis on Jun 3, 2003 5:04:56 GMT -8
Scott!
Thanks for the detailed response. That's pretty wild about the R valve. I don't think that I will go that route. I do have one of those Scubapro valves with the built in pressure gauge. I was going to put it in a tank, but it hadn't occurred to me that the gauge might be a leak point. As for the AT-Pacs, let me ask you if you have ever seen one of these: In a pawn shop some years back, I saw what seemed to be a constant volume BC, that I think was made by Dacor. It was a hard plastic tank that was about the size of a jerry can and was mounted on a back plate. The guy wanted more for it than what it seemed worth at the time, but I've never seen another and always wondered what it was.
Thanks, Dennis.
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Scott
Regular Diver
Posts: 18
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Post by Scott on Jun 3, 2003 19:09:35 GMT -8
Hi again, Dennis.
Yeah, the Dacor Nautilus! Jeez, forgot all about that one. I'm looking at the '77 Dacor catalogue right now. Model CVS - Constant Volume System. "The most revolutionary buoyancy control system since the development of the submarine." Wow, that's a bold statement. Looks to be the same principle as the Scubapro unit - back mounted floatation, a hard shell, ballast chambers, harness...although this one appears to be a little more involved. It features a manual air dump valve behind the right shoulder and a water inlet control handle at the bottom right. Interesting. Never actually saw one or knew anyone who had used one, but its a sharp looking unit. According to the distributor's price list, it sold new in '77 for $199.00 complete (not including tank & regulator). It could only be purchased as part of a training program, meaning you had to be trained in it's use before you were allowed to take it home. A five page article on the Nautilus CVS was featured in the June '77 issue of Skin Diver Magazine, according to a company bulletin. I'm not much of a Dacor fan, so it'll be up to someone else to advise you of it's worth. I would think that there's not many of them still around. Good luck, whatever you decide. -S.
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Post by Dennis on Jun 11, 2003 5:19:52 GMT -8
Scott!
I found someone with a Dacor Nautilus. He accepted my offer and is sending me a new, unused unit.
The USF library (Go Bulls!) has a copy of the June 1977 Skin Diver article that you mentioned and I made a photocopy. Thanks for telling me about it. It turns out that the Nautilus is WAY beyond being just a hard shell over a backmount BC. It is a hard tank air tank used as a BC. Why, might you ask, doesn’t the tank crush under pressure? Because it has its own regulator that AUTOMATICALLY adds air as you go down. It has valves (set at 2.5 psi above ambient) that AUTOMATCALLY release air as you go up. You partially flood the tank at the beginning of the dive to establish desired buoyancy. Then you forget about it. The BC is AUTOMATIC and will constantly adjust itself to changing pressures to maintain the initial buoyancy setting. You cannot have a runaway ascent because the BC will adjust to keep your ascent rate constant at the rate that you choose. This thing is incredible. It’s ingenious. I don’t think that there was ever, or has been since, anything like it. It really looks fearsome. Big and black with yellow stripes. Mated with my Voit Trieste double hose regulator with LP hose, this thing will be off the scale in coolness.
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Post by stuart jefferies on Jun 11, 2003 4:48:48 GMT -8
What is my favorite kit. Well it's difficult to choose from so many nice vintage items, some of which I've still to try, but for me it's my dads old custom made wetsuit from 1964 (shark skin) yellow tape etc, a simple oval mask and slipper fins and Spirotechnique mistral (wet mouthpiece) Spirotechnique twins. I like to dive with as close to what the pioneers had. I have to add that the Mistral is a good breather, but once the water is in, it's never clear and is akin to breathing through a sink u tube. It does teach you to become a very calm diver though. As for the best two hose regulator ever built, I've got to say until you've dived with a Siebe Gorman Merlin mk6 you don't know what you've been missing. What makes it so good as to out perform all the others? Two stage upstream tilt valve (free floating) superb venturi action and a wafer thin diaphragm, which all adds up to effortless breathing. Having said this it's an ugly heavy son of a thing, so I 've got to say that I think the US Divers Royal is probably one of the nicest alround.
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Post by John Adair on Jun 12, 2003 10:39:57 GMT -8
My Favorite gear, although I love my double hose regs, It has to be my WaterGill At-Pac with the royal blue fiberglass shell, with the my steel 71.2, as for the regulator, the WaterGill FSDS 100, it was a double piston 1st stage about the size of the ScubaPro MKVII, but the cool thing was that if you stopped breathing it had a designed HP leak in the 1st stage that would slowly raise the IP until it “popped” the LP inflator spring on the At-Pac, thus inflating you BC and sending you to the surface, at the surface it would continue to inflate the At-Pac causing the overpressure valve built into the hose to honk. For those of you that don’t know, the At-Pac ran the inflator hose inside the oral inflator hose. The second stages were twice the size of a normal regulator but did breath pretty good, the orange ones were florescent and glowed at depth. As for gauges, it is a toss up between the SAS/Penform triangle gauge console (about the size of a small football field) with the SOS Decom meter tacked on for extra weight, or my Farallon console with the Multi tissue Decomputer built in. I will also have on my White Stag Hydro Stream Fins, my Brass and SS /w the brown handle US Divers Master Diver Knife on the leg.
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