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Post by luis on Jul 3, 2014 3:09:00 GMT -8
I've not saw the insides of an Argonaut ... did they make the exhaust valve similar to what was in the Hydrotwin, where it's actually part of the can? Robert To the casual observer, you may think they are similar. Keep in mind that I have many years (decades) of professional experience in fluid dynamics. The flow path and flow area is optimized, and there is no dead spaces. My test data and all the feed back that I received confirms that the exhaust flow performance is superior to any regulator that I am aware of. Keep in mind that mushroom valves is used in all modern breathing devices, including high performance re-breathers. A well designed mushroom valves system provides the absolute lowest flow resistance and the highest reliability. Re-breathers design requires the lowest possible flow resistance (I can explain in a different thread). The inhalation performance can only be matched by a Phoenix-HPR that has been tuned to its best performance. The advantage of the Argonaut is that the tuning will be easier and longer lasting (since both volcano orifices, the HP and LP orifices, can be replaced if needed), etc. If you read the thread below, you will find a list of some of the improvements from any vintage, modern, or hybrid double hose regulator. vintagedoublehose.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=7461
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Post by luis on Jul 3, 2014 3:37:09 GMT -8
The duckbill eliminator (DBE)is a replacement part for USD and Voit regulators that is installed in the place of the duckbill (hence the name eliminator). It allows the use of mushroom valves which are more reliable and easier to replace. The use of a mushroom valves in the exhaust can is not new but the DBE is. There is no DBE (or duckbill for that matter) in the Argonuat, rather the exhaust passage is molded into the exhaust can and a mushroom valve is used. There is no comparison between in the performance of the "new Mistral" and the Argonuat. The new Mistal has a number of design flaws that made it a very poor performing regulator, I have wondered if anyone at AL who actually dove DH regs was involved in it's design. On the other hand, the Argonuat was designed and tested over a number of years by people who study, restore and extensively dive DH regulators. Lessons learned from old and new designs were incorperated into the reg. Surflungs post cronicals the history of replacement parts and upgrades that have been made over the last few years to existing DH regulators. All the the lessons learned from those parts and upgrades have been incorperated into one package
The more common term used today is SAC rate (surface air consumption). While a poorly tuned/designed regulator with a high WOB (work of breathing) can have an impact on your SAC, no regulators made in recent years have a significantly different WOB. Your body makeup, diving skill, diving style and equipment selection (wetsuit/drysuit/doubles/fins/ect) have much more impact on your SAC than regulator selection. Thanks Herman, That is a great post. I am actually kind of in the middle of writing a bit of a chronological recent evolution (the past ten years) of our modern regulator. • The Phoenix (multiport balanced first stage with improved flow path) • The DBE design (by Rob Sew...) • Reproduction plastic cans (by Rob Stu...) • The Pegasus (test platform for what would later become the HPR) • The Unicorn (test platform for adjustable venturi tests) • The HPR (this design has been a true "game changer" and amazingly simple, it is all in the details) • The intergraded two stage test platform (using vintage metal cans) • The Argonaut (totally new with totally new plastic can design) The list in in chronological order, but I know that I am forgetting a lot of steps and I need to expand each item. When I get some time I need to write all this down.
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Post by scubadiverbob on Jul 3, 2014 6:23:22 GMT -8
Luis,
If they are still available, when my last duckbill gives out on me, which might be soon .... like next time I clean my regulator (the silicon duckbills are thinner and don't take the punishment of getting pulled and replaced every time I clean my hoses) .... I plan on getting a "duckbill eliminator" for my DA. I think it's a way better design. The old duckbills lasted longer, but over time would dry out .... I've went through a few silicon duckbills ...
So, with that in mind ... I totally agree with all you posted ...
Robert
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Post by scubadiverbob on Jul 3, 2014 6:48:06 GMT -8
Thanks Herman for answering one of my questions .... so it's sorta like my Hydrotwin ... Then, since the technology existed, I'm still wondering why USD never upgraded and got away from the duckbill? It's good all you did ... just curious .... that's all. It's like the duckbill, even though it works, was the worst part of their regulators for failing ... and on some regs, when that happens, you get to breath water mixed with your air. Believe me, not a great feeling ..... luckily I was in ten feet of water! ... and feel me in, what is a Pegasus, a Unicorn, and a HPR? I've never heard of those types of regulators. ... and I hope you all aren't trying to say I'm old, or vintage, because I never heard that ACR was now SAC. I took my first diving course in the 70's (NASDS) not long after going into the Navy (while at CTM/A school)... and that doesn't seem like it was to long ago ... my body feels old; but, my mind is still sorta young Robert
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Post by scubadiverbob on Jul 3, 2014 6:58:57 GMT -8
Still curious ... did you put two mushroom valves in the exhaust of Argonaut, like Dacor did in my Pacer? The Pacer XL and XLE's were the best breathing single hose regulators I've ever owned.
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Post by scubadiverbob on Jul 3, 2014 7:00:35 GMT -8
Ok, the outside of the regulator looks great! Why don't you all show me what the inside looks like?
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Post by herman on Jul 3, 2014 11:52:17 GMT -8
DBEs are available at Vintage Double hose, $15 if I remember correctly. The Pegasus was/is a custom regulator that Luis designed and I manufactured the custom parts for. Basically, we took a Voit Titan single hose regulator and Robs reproduction Voit 50 fathom cans and made a DH regulator out of them. The major new part was the second stage that Luis designed and I built, there were a 9 total build for a small group of friends. One of which is owned by a dive buddy of mine, he dove it with me this afternoon. The second stage we built for the Pegasus was then modified to replace the entire second stage of USD DAs and RAMs, it became know as the HPR (high performance regulator...I think that is right) It removes the need for the horseshoe lever stand offs, has an improved lever design, less lever friction and a better venturi design. It is a complete drop in replacement for the DA/RAM/RM second stage and is available from VDH. With the HPR and the latest single stage diaphragm (the HPR can be used with either a 1 or 2 stage diaphragms)the performance of a DA/RAM is greatly improved. The HPR and new single stage diaphragm are used in the Argonuat.
The Unicorn is/was a balanced single stage DH regulator, similar to a Royal Mistal that Luis designed and I made parts for.
There are long theads with photos on VDH on the Pegasus, the Unicorn, the HPR, the DBE and the Argonaut. Go there, grab a beer and do a search, there is hours of reading on them. Including photos of a lot of the prototypes we did along the way. As to your question on the number of exhast valves, there is a single valve in the DBE and the Arognuat Krackan, again, plenty of photos on VDH in the threads relating to those items.
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Post by luis on Jul 3, 2014 17:12:52 GMT -8
Thanks again Herman for your post. I should add that the HPR does not use the tabs on the 2 stage diaphragm. It has two low friction beads that contact the flat surface of the diaphragm (preferebly the single stage diaphragm). There is no need to align the diaphragm. The unit is one self contained module that screws into the main body and the lever is self aligning. In the Argonaut it also has the advantage of an adjustable and replaceable volcano orifice. Then, since the technology existed, I'm still wondering why USD never upgraded and got away from the duckbill? US Divers never even upgraded their double hose regulator to include HP or LP ports. IMO, that was one of the reasons why they lost popularity. When I designed the Phoenix almost 10 years ago, it added HP and LP ports (and several other improvements)to the RAM. ... and I hope you all aren't trying to say I'm old, or vintage, because I never heard that ACR was now SAC. I took my first diving course in the 70's (NASDS) not long after going into the Navy (while at CTM/A school)... and that doesn't seem like it was to long ago ... my body feels old; but, my mind is still sorta young Robert The fact that you did NASDS explains the unique acronym. NASDS were notorious for using their own language. They tried to re-name items that were already becoming standardized by everyone else on the industry. There are actually two Unicorn models. Unicorn I is just a balanced single stage. Similar concept as the Royal Mistral, but different valve components. The Unicorn II contains HP ports and a different body. I used a modified/ re-machined Phoenix to make it. The Unicorn I and II are both very reliable very decent performers. They are the best single stage I have ever tested and they are not affected by tank pressure. I only built two prototypes each of the Unicorn I and II and I have no plans of having anymore ever built. The Unicorn III is on the drawing board (many parts already fabricated). But, I have no idea if this would ever be a production regulator. Probably not. The Pegasus was also a short term experiment. The only production DH regulator at this point is the Argonaut. Again, here a lot more details on the Argonaut. vintagedoublehose.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=7461You can see pictures of the inside here (from Sitkadiver) and in many other places: vintagedoublehose.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=7724&start=30Note: I only designed all these regulators. I test them and I dive them. This is just a hobby for me. I do not fabricate or have any financial interest in the production of the Argonaut.
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Post by herman on Jul 3, 2014 18:05:08 GMT -8
"The Unicorn I and II are both very reliable very decent performers. They are the best single hose I have ever tested and they are not affected by tank pressure."
Luis meant to say single stage regulator, not single hose. All of these regs are DH designs.
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Post by scubadiverbob on Jul 4, 2014 6:20:02 GMT -8
Just an idea, when is someone going to re-invent the Hope-Paige mouthpiece? They are really cool ... I had one on my regulator in the 80's and all I had to do was unscrew it, take it off my hoses, rinse them out, and hang the regulator up to dry. Was wondering if the mouthpiece on the "new mistral" would fit on my DA hoses? If so, where could I buy one?
Have you thought of making the Argonaut with a mouthpiece that unscrews for drying out the hoses?
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Post by scubadiverbob on Jul 4, 2014 7:37:14 GMT -8
Argonaut KrakenI'm really thinking about getting Andrew one for Christmas ... I finally was able to open the above link. That's a really good price for a brand new doublehose regulator! I thought it would cost way more. You all put quite a bit of work into designing and making them. So, can I get one with red hoses and a mouthpiece that unscrews for cleaning the hoses (like I mentioned in the last post)? It looks like from what I've saw, they come with black or red hoses. Do I get to pick the color? Just curious ... You all don't sell red hoses do you? That would look way cool on my DA! (Andrew needs to get his mind off my DA ... why I need to get him a doublehose!) ...
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Post by sitkadiver on Jul 4, 2014 7:52:53 GMT -8
Just an idea, when is someone going to re-invent the Hope-Paige mouthpiece? They are really cool ... I had one on my regulator in the 80's and all I had to do was unscrew it, take it off my hoses, rinse them out, and hang the regulator up to dry. Was wondering if the mouthpiece on the "new mistral" would fit on my DA hoses? If so, where could I buy one? Have you thought of making the Argonaut with a mouthpiece that unscrews for drying out the hoses? I imagine they're closer than we think, but have been focused on the Argonaut Kraken: As far as the Hope-Page moutpiece, I do like them, but I've also seen a couple that have had the threads ruined by being cross threaded. Both of my HP's have thread gaps from the plastic cracking. You could also use a rebreather mouthpiece, but be ready for some sticker shock! I don't have a rebreather mouthpiece, but use one of the mouthpiece plugs when surface swimming. Here, I took the reg off underwater to try and get a shot of it next to an anemone. You can see the necklace that is tied to the mouthpiece plug hanging down. The mouthpiece plug works very well to keep a DH from free flowing on the surface. I swam about 80 yards while lying on my back and the reg didn't hiss at all. You can see the distance between the point and the beach in this photo: Mouthpiece plug if you surface swim a lot: Dive Surface Mouthpiece Plug
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Post by sitkadiver on Jul 4, 2014 8:24:55 GMT -8
I'll post the photos here that Luis mentioned: The build quality on the Kraken is very good - better than I anticipated to be honest. I did a post dive inspection on this reg and it was clean and dry. Even after being left to drip dry over night. The exhaust looks great. I have a DBE in 2 of Phoenix regs and I cannot tell a difference while diving, but I can sure tell a difference when removing and replacing hoses. Having a DBE makes hose replacement a snap! No more tying the duckbill or trying to grease the duckbill so the hose doesn't move it. Here, you can see the Kraken exhaust is built into the can: Some of the little details are really amazing. Here you can see the small o-ring that Luis installed on the can screw. The reg also has the nuts secured into the other side of the can - Basically, no loose hardware! Brilliant! Overall this reg is top notch - It's very well built and performs like a dream. I've only had it to 60 feet, but I'll be using it in 160 FSW in a cave later this month.
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Post by herman on Jul 4, 2014 8:46:02 GMT -8
I am not sure if the red hoses were just for the first run or if there are plans to offer them later...my GUESS is if enough want them, Bryan will have more made if he does not already have extras on hand. From the photos I have seen of the Argos sold, many of them are sporting the red hoses so they appear to be fairly popular. If on the other hand, if you must get red and don't want them, it's a good bet someone would be willing to trade you for a different color. I do know he has a few regs that are not spoken for so if you want one,it may be a good idea to go ahead and contact him. One of the problems with the new Mistral was the large hoses and awkward mouthpiece so I don't think using one would be a good approch....now replacing the Mistral one with an old school one may be an improvement. As for drying the hoses on the Argo, the thought is to remove the can ends and dry them that way. Finger screws are provided with the can end clamps so they are easy to remove and since there is no duckbill to deal with, removing the can end of the hoses makes sence. Plus it allow more air into the cans so they dry better as well. Dave those features cost me a lot of time at the lathe. I was just setting here thinking about the number of custom tools I ended up making for this project, it is somewhere around 10. None of them are required/needed for maintainance, the reg can be serviced with standard tools, although a few of the tools I already make do help, the HPR and HP stage assembly tools for example. The specialty tools were used for production work, like installing those small orings. Doing one can is no big deal but doing a couple of hundred it gets old and slow if you are picking up those tiny orings one at a time....I made a tool to install them. Another unique tool was one for bending the tabs on the label, again doing one is no prolem but to do hundreds in a uniform manner a tool make the assembly life easier.
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Post by scubadiverbob on Jul 4, 2014 13:43:15 GMT -8
Luis,
NASDS taught me to buy ScubaPro only. Most dive stores that sale scubapro are still scubapro only; though, NASDS is a thing of the past. If a store wants to sale scubapro with other dive stuff they are required to put scubapro in the front of their store, so customers will see it before looking at other manufacturers items. My dive instructor told me to go to the store down the road and check out Dacor and USD stuff. He told me not to tell anyone he told me that; because, he would get fired. The only thing I bought that was scubapro was my snorkel and fins (scubapro jet fins were great, and they are still around). I bought a Dacor regulator.
I think "air consumption rate" was the correct term (I no longer have my Navy Dive Manuals; anyone got a set from the 70's who can look it up?) and PADI and/or NAUI changed it. Things do change ... I was taught in openwater class to do CPR in the water and to recompress a diver (luckly I never had to do that; even though it was taught, I never had enough air around ....) CPR in water is hard to do, have to remove the tank to use the backpack for a flat surface (wasn't taught want to do if the diver was wearing a harness), breath into the diver when the waves are going over me ... well, glad I never had to do that, also! Now, in the Rescue class Andrew is taking, they teach to get the diver to the boat or shore ... like I said, things change. I just never heard of "SAC" before.
I hope I'm not dating myself! Don't forget, I'm sorta young!
I guess this is sorta off the topic of the thread ... sorry 'bout that.
Robert
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