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Post by cstmwrks on Jan 16, 2015 18:39:53 GMT -8
Absolutely right, John. Things like toluene, acetone, and what's in many fiberglassing and casting products are really bad for you. I'm always concerned about that when I work. Thanks. Small point of interest, use of gloves is not to keep solvents off your hands, though it is a side benafit. It is to keep your hands and thus the skin oils out of the glue seam. If I remember correctly some of the prior owners of aquala just used cotton gloves. Cement was applied with a brush and getting fingers in the fresh cement ( gloved or not ) is to be avoided.
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Post by Nemo on Jan 16, 2015 18:41:10 GMT -8
CSTMWRKS: I'm pretty sure you're right. It's common rubber contact cement and everybody's using it. I've seen it in that "amber" clear, white, and black; but chemically I think it's all the same stuff. If Ty still wants to sell Aquala I hope he finds a buyer. I just don't have time to branch out from the other things I'm doing. But it would be nice if someone did as you say: got it running and started producing suits. It's a niche market but I know one guy in Hawaii who would be interested in a few. Others might, too. Wouldn't have to be for a Leagues rig; you could dive any twelve bolt breastplate or modify the collar gasket to accept what you have. Easy as pie. (And why do we say that? I've tried to make pie; it's NOT easy.) About supply: I made my first "Lo-Quala" jacket before Ty made the first Nemosuit; that was out of semi-stiff stuff I got from the local Surplus Store. Still have it and it still works. If I have to I'll piece something together out of a couple pairs of waders; I've seen that done. Ya get good boots that way, too!
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Post by nikeajax on Jan 17, 2015 15:20:02 GMT -8
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Post by Nemo on Jan 21, 2015 11:36:52 GMT -8
UPDATE: First, thanks the folks here at VSS for your help and thanks to DRW for the lead to VDH. Getting some good info.
The rubber Mike (floatingpi at VDH) used on that green drysuit (2009) was latex and he's presently experimenting with ways to make it more durable. He had tried in the past to obtain information or material from Aquala but was unsuccessful; which pretty much goes along with what I understand: Ty does not want to divulge his sources.
So we're still looking. These two Website Discussion Groups have been a lot of help and the search goes on.
Film at eleven........
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Post by cstmwrks on Jan 22, 2015 13:26:28 GMT -8
Ty does not want to divulge his sources. << no doubt. If some one found the company that made the rubber used by aquala and it became common knowledge on the internet.... well it would mean a 90% reduction in the value of aquala as far as ever selling it to some one else.
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Post by Nemo on Jan 23, 2015 2:47:26 GMT -8
When Ty and I spoke of it a few years ago, it seemed like (other than some materials and tooling) the sale would have been essentially based on the value of: (1) a connection to his rubber supplier; and (2) ownership of the name Aquala.
My point: the value went beyond the mere identity of the rubber supplier. Ty offered his established business relationships with them. Those connections were derived of his own labors, so naturally he's not going to be inclined to give them away and I don't blame him.
That said, DIY seems a fair option to anyone willing to establish their own connections; as long as they're not calling their suits Aquala. Right?
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Post by cstmwrks on Jan 24, 2015 11:39:58 GMT -8
That said, DIY seems a fair option to anyone willing to establish their own connections; as long as they're not calling their suits Aquala. Right? Yes, you are free to do what ever you please on making your own rubber suits. Or selling them for that matter. Nobody holds patent rights to a generic glued or dipped suit. Calling them an aquala suit and marketing them as such would be an issue. As for the value of aquala, Yes there is more value than just the source of the rubber. But any new owner is not going to see as high a value for the name or the customer list if a few other people have started making clone suits at a cheaper price and still coming darn close or worse.. just as good a quality.
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Post by Nemo on Jan 25, 2015 2:27:54 GMT -8
Can't argue with any of that. The value of the business connections, materials, tooling, and experience that might be passed along are objective; the value of the tradmarked name is subjective based on what it might be worth to a new owner. It would take someone who really wants to get into making vintage drysuits and who felt that keeping the name Aquala alive would further that goal; and hopefully there's someone out there who wants to do that but it's not me.
It's like anything else: if you put something out there that people might want, somebody's going to want to do it themself and (unless they step on your proprietary rights) they can. It's happened to me, in fact.
There wasn't anyone making replicas of the 20,000 Leagues hats when I started serious R&D on the first Nemosuit in 2001. Since then I've seen a few replicas where the builder says he copied Disney, but by the way he reproduced my early mistakes I can see he really copied me. I've had pages online showing how it's done for that past 12 years; but nobody has ever given me the respect of citing me as their inspiration or source in a genre I created. Why? Vanity? Human nature? I guess. Whatever.
I can't blame people for trying because (owing to my 1991 agreement with Disney Legal) I don't make commercial use of Disney's designs and therefore people who can't get a helmet from me are going to make their own if they can. I'm OK with that but (like Ty) I'm not inclined to, say, let them use my patterns or make castings from my hats so they can make replicas for sale; that would not serve my best interests or Disney's.
But do artists have the right to do their own work? To look at what I've done (along with all other available information)and gleen what they can in pursuit of their own projects? Again, as long as it doesn't infringe on anything protected by law, the answer is "Yes, they do."
Do I worry about that? Other than to wish people would accurately credit their sources as I do; no, I don't.
There's people who value my work because I'm the premier exponent in my field. But someone to whom that's not important might not care if he's getting an authentic Regan helmet as long as it looks enough like a Leagues hat to satisfy him. Fact is: there's nothing wrong with him finding other ways to go whether I'm available as a resource or not. And the same is true for those wanting vintage drysuits.
Aquala has provided the World with a fine example; set the pace for 60+ years. I'd love to keep using Aquala suits but they are no longer available so I have to do it myself and there's nothing wrong with that. Others wanting something similar are in the same boat and that's why were on this thread. All good as far as I'm concerned.
I will not, however, disclose anything about Aquala that was shared with me in confidence or that I know Ty developed himself and considers a trade secret.
Still looking for a rubber supplier and the search continues. Thanks for your interest and insight. Will post more here if and when I know.
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Post by Nemo on Jan 25, 2015 3:00:57 GMT -8
P.S. To qualify my second-to-last paragraph, above: Aqualaply has been around far longer than utility patents endure; the basic formula and manufacturing methods are in the public domain. However, if upon analysis the chemist found recent proprietary improvements, I would have to call that Ty's and couldn't disclose it.
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Post by cstmwrks on Jan 25, 2015 6:49:17 GMT -8
P.S. To qualify my second-to-last paragraph, above: Aqualaply has been around far longer than utility patents endure; the basic formula and manufacturing methods are in the public domain. However, if upon analysis the chemist found recent proprietary improvements, I would have to call that Ty's and couldn't disclose it. Unless Ty is a full blown rubber chemist it is unlikely that he has come up with a modification to the original formula. "IF" such has happened the mill would be under obligation to only make and sell the new formulation to him. The original formula of aqualaply would still be open to who ever wants to buy it. For that matter, the mill itself may have had to take formulation matters into there own hands. Cost control, availability of additives, any number of reasons. I don't remember the details or how long ago it was, just that some type of law suit came about over the exclusive nature of the rubber. I don't know if the mill wanted to sell it to other customers that needed that type of rubber, but were in no way shape or form in the drysuit business. Or if it was a result of customers having a need, again, having nothing to do with making suits. In any event I hope the aquala company finds a new home. If Ty is not bothering to keep it active, I hope he is at least not expecting to sell the company for a profit over his purchase price. I have seen this before. Everybody expects to sell for more than what they paid. Reasonable offers being refused and the final outcome was the "asset" going for scrap at .03 cents on the dollar. Not keeping the business active does not help with selling points. Hope we are not watching the sun set on yet another American company.
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Post by nikeajax on Jan 27, 2015 14:51:15 GMT -8
Hmmmmm?!?!?!? I'm wondering if one you guys knows anything about sewing neoprene? Here's my machine: It's very robust, I even used it to sew my seat covers for my '56 Buick, so it's not about being able to punch through the material, I just can't get the threads to lock. I really want to put new zippers in my Healthways wetsuit. Any ideas? Jaybird
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Post by Nemo on Jan 30, 2015 8:52:57 GMT -8
Still looking for a supplier that makes vulcanized laminated rubber of the type used to make vintage drysuits. If anyone has any solid leads to companies making that type of rubber, please post them here or contact me by PM or email through VSC. Thank you.
VBR,
Pat
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slim
New Member
Posts: 1
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Post by slim on Mar 15, 2015 14:44:14 GMT -8
Still looking for a supplier that makes vulcanized laminated rubber of the type used to make vintage drysuits. If anyone has any solid leads to companies making that type of rubber, please post them here or contact me by PM or email through VSC. Thank you. VBR, Pat worked with geo wilbey on suits in sun rise fa in 70 s
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Post by Nemo on May 26, 2015 14:55:39 GMT -8
UPDATE: Was never able to get in touch with Ty Alley (Aquala) and I surmise that means he is out of business.
But recently I was fortunate enough to obtain an original Aquala suit: never been dived, still in the original packaging and talc, in perfect condition.
This original Aqualaply rubber is noticeably different from what Ty was making his suits out of, in terms of weight, elasticity, suppleness, etc.
It is my intention to send samples from the repair kit to a manufacturing company and have their chemists analyze and reproduce it. I'll buy a roll of it and start making my own suits.
Where there's a will, there's a way! ;-)
Thanks to everyone who took an interest in this; just thought I'd let you know I believe I've found a way to go.
VBR,
Pat
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Post by DavidRitchieWilson on May 27, 2015 7:37:37 GMT -8
Thanks for keeping us in the loop, Pat. I wish I could help with contacts on the manufacturing front, but I do have strong interests in 1950s-style drysuit designs. I've been researching So-Lo Marx's seamless gum-rubber Skooba-"totes" suits in particular for a long while now and won a brown version on eBay recently to add to my safety-yellow Totes purchased here at VSS a number of years ago. One name that crops up quite often in the early drysuit diving world is Canadian Phil Nuytten. He has his own Wikipedia page. I came across him during online research. Here's a picture of him as a very young man in a 1950s Bel-Aqua (Aquala's predecessor company) drysuit: It illustrates an HDS Canada article entitled Bel-Aqua Watersports that is a really good read considering your interest in recreating an old-school drysuit. Phil even ran a dealership in Bel-Aqua suits at one time, so he has first-hand experience that you may be able to tap into. I would expect him to be contactable via his company website at Nuytco ResearchBe sure to let us know how you're getting on. David
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