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Post by guscabana on Feb 27, 2008 9:05:23 GMT -8
Hi All, first post in this forum, thanks for all I learn reading the posts... Im an UW photographer and I hate the noise and the bubbles on the face. Got a Nemrod 3 but only tried in the pool, and then a Mistral 2. I use it for a week in Bahamas and I love it. Of course after I put a comfobite and weight under the mouthpiece (2 pounds soft weight). Later I tried the rings but didn't work as good as the weight at the mouthpiece. The Titan first stage doesn't have a second HP output for my air transmiter, and Im wondering if I can connect an Apeks ATX100 I have, they work at much different pressures?. Also I like to try mounting the second stage at the front, or make a different mount to lower it at the back. I tried to rig it with a second first stage in a double output tank and was impossible with the way it is now. Some pics of the interiors: Thanks again, Gustavo Cabana Spain / Argentina www.guscabana.com
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Post by luis on Feb 27, 2008 9:47:32 GMT -8
Buenas Gustavo
Bienvenido a VSS.
Nice pictures of the new Mistral.
You could use any first stage with that regulator and just the IP as needed, but IMO it would be just easier to get a HP adapter to convert your single HP port into two high pressure ports.
Wow, two pounds seems like a lot. I can’t remember what I calculated the buoyancy to be, but I don’t think it was that much. I did play around with weights since it is totally necessary with that large mouthpiece and the larger hoses.
I actually own three of those regulators (including one special edition), but I prefer diving my vintage and eclectic (Phoenix Royal Aqua Master) regulators.
I actually use one of my new Mistral first stages as a single hose regulator with an old Scubapro metal adjustable second stage.
BTW, with a spanner wrench you can remove the ring that holds the second stage without disassembling the dry chamber on the first stage.
If you need a service manual for that regulator you could send me a PM with your email address and I can email you some PDF files.
Nice skydiving pictures in your web site.
Hasta luego
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Post by guscabana on Feb 27, 2008 10:23:41 GMT -8
Hola Luis, gracias por tus comentarios. I think was a 2 pounds weight, I borrow it from the boat... why not the hoses are smaller like in the vintage regulators? I disassembled as much as can for the pictures. With a home-made spanner wrench was imposible to remove the ring, it turns the standard way? I will use my Apeks first stage with the second Mistral then, how I adjust the IP? probably will breath better with a better first stage? Ill keep all posted with the results... Thanks, Gustavo
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Post by nemrod on Feb 27, 2008 10:51:29 GMT -8
Welcome to the forum. Please keep us posted, I am interested in your results.
One thing, the Titan first stage is a good first stage, I seriously doubt you will improve much by going to Brand X other than getting another HP port, the Titan is a high performance and high flow diaphram first stage. Good luck and thanks for the pictures.
Nem
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Post by luis on Feb 27, 2008 11:15:02 GMT -8
Hola de Nuevo. The hoses in the new Mistral are a bit bigger than the vintage regulators. In the vintage regulators the hoses are 1 inch in inside diameter (versus around 1 ¼” on the new Mistral). As I understand it, in the new Mistral they are using Draeger re-breather hoses (I think Aqua Lung owns Draeger). In are-breather there is no pneumatic advantage as in an open circuit demand valve so they go for the absolute minimum flow resistance. The mouthpiece valves in the new Mistral are also borrowed from a re-breather and they are extremely low resistance. I am not personally familiar with the Apex Atx 100, but I am fairly sure it is a diaphragm first stage and it would have an adjustment screw. It may already set for an IP of about 140 to 145 psi. That is what I would recommend for the new Mistral… the same as most single hose regulators. Changing the first stage is probably not going to make any difference on its breathing performance. The first stage job is only to provide a constant IP as possible during the breathing cycle. The Titan first stage does a pretty good job at that. Not to disappoint you, but the performance in that regulator is limited by the design of the second stage. Your pictures very clearly show the small diaphragm and the use of a standard single hose demand valve with the flow orifice pointing to the side of the case. The regulator can be adjusted to have minimal initial cracking effort, but it will never have a full advantage of a well design venturi assisted flow or the mechanical advantage of a large diaphragm. If you want a high performance double hose I would always recommend a Royal Aqua Master. If you want a modernized (eclectic) high performance equivalent it would be a Phoenix Royal Aqua Master with all the modern reproduction parts (silicon diaphragm, new mouthpiece cages with silicon cage valves, etc.). Note: it could be said that I am totally biased in that recommendation since I am the designer of some of those parts, especially the Phoenix first stage, but personally I like to think that I am being objective. The performance difference can be easily measured. I am aware of at least one professional photographer that switched from his new Mistral to a Phoenix RAM for his working regulator. The publisher of this on line magazine: www.underwaterjournal.com/Here is more information on the Phoenix: www.vintagedoublehose.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2088Removing that ring should be easy with a spanner wrench. It is just clamping the soft outer clear diaphragm. It does have standard right hand threads…unscrews counter clockwise. Again the best you can do is fine tune the second stage and increase the IP to try to balance the second stage spring force. That will reduce the cracking effort some. Also location of the second stage low on your back will improve breathing performance. In the swimming position the diaphragm in a double hose tends to be high in the water column. The good news is that when you are taking picture I bet you tend to be a bit more vertical. In that position any double hose breaths better. I was looking through your web site and it is very impressive. Someday I will get to do some more jumps… I only got a few with a round canopy. Just so much time to do things.
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Post by nemrod on Feb 27, 2008 11:38:40 GMT -8
Ditto Luis, the modern Mistral is severely limited by the second stage design and small diaphram which severely handicaps the regulator's overall performance. Some people enjoy them and apparently with some effort and work they do just fine but as Luis said, for your use a Phoenix Aqua Master is a better choice. Only thing is they are limited in number. I would say just get a good Royal Aqua Master which is gonna run some bucks but using a Phoenix conversion the more common DA Aqua Master becomes a Royal Aqua Master. Somehow I get the idea your using modern BC and other items therefore the Phoenix would be ideal for you.
Nem
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Post by guscabana on Feb 27, 2008 15:22:05 GMT -8
Thanks for all the good info, now I understand more about it, and I dont think is wort trying to do something if the problem is in the design of the second stage... What next? get a cheap DA Aqua Master, and replace all with new parts, and with the Phoenix mod I will have the best? including extra ports for BC, drysuit, etc? Im not into vintage value, I just want a good modern 2 hose regulator, like the Mistral 2 should be ;-) Gustavo
[...Someday I will get to do some more jumps… I only got a few with a round canopy...] by the way, in skydiving is not a pleasure to use vintage round canopies, I made 50 jumps with them, and the landings, I mean the falls...ouchh!!! :-)
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Post by nemrod on Feb 27, 2008 15:56:06 GMT -8
The Phoenix is a first stage designed by Luis above that utilizes mostly Titan internals in a lengthened Aqua Master nozzle to provide three HP ports and three LP ports. The hookah LP port on the Aqua Master may also support up to three additional LP ports for a total of three HP and six LP. You got that many devices? There are four "modern" double hose regulators: 1) New Mistral from Aqua Lung -- no longer made, plenty out there and support for parts and service from AL is good, poor perfirmance compared to the older Royal Aqua Master due to hodge podge engineering 2) Navy Aqua Lung Mentor--- military only, about 100 units total, only one known to exist in civilian hands, no parts or service from AL 3) Phoenix Royal Aqua Master --- limited production kit modifies older model RAM, not always available, highest performance and capability, parts and support via the vintage community and in particular vdh. 4) The Nemrod III (?) -- no longer produced since about 1998, never even seen one, probably no parts or service or limited at best especially in North America. Don't know much about it. Nemrod
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Post by guscabana on Feb 27, 2008 16:06:51 GMT -8
with 3 LP and 2 HP Im set. Looking for a Royal Aqua Master then, and get the Phoenix mod... I have a Nemrod Snark 3 with 2 new extra hoses for trade ...
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Post by luis on Feb 27, 2008 17:13:21 GMT -8
with 3 LP and 2 HP Im set. Looking for a Royal Aqua Master then, and get the Phoenix mod... I have a Nemrod Snark 3 with 2 new extra hoses for trade ... All you need is an Aqua Master. They are very common and a lot less expensive. The Phoenix will convert it into a Royal. One of the major design features for the Phoenix is that most of regularly replacement parts are standard to modern Aqua Lung regulators so parts will be available for a very long time.
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Post by luis on Feb 27, 2008 17:21:03 GMT -8
[...Someday I will get to do some more jumps… I only got a few with a round canopy...] by the way, in skydiving is not a pleasure to use vintage round canopies, I made 50 jumps with them, and the landings, I mean the falls...ouchh!!! :-) Yeah...I am aware of that. Those jumps were over 20 years ago. On one of my early jumps I didn't do a great landing (crash) and I ended over extending a non flexible joint in my right foot. I was in crutches for a while and I ended up with a bit of arthritis in that foot. I would like to some jumps with a square.
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Post by luis on Feb 27, 2008 17:33:26 GMT -8
1) New Mistral from Aqua Lung -- no longer made, plenty out there and support for parts and service from AL is good, poor perfirmance compared to the older Royal Aqua Master due to hodge podge engineering 2) Navy Aqua Lung Mentor--- military only, about 100 units total, only one known to exist in civilian hands, no parts or service from AL 3) Phoenix Royal Aqua Master --- limited production kit modifies older model RAM, not always available, highest performance and capability, parts and support via the vintage community and in particular vdh. Nemrod Actually all three of these regulators use the same 1st stage parts and in the second stage of all three the only normally replaceable part is the seat, which is shared with many single hose regulator. The only unique parts are the main diaphragm and some of the hose assembly parts. The good thing is that we now have plenty of sources for hoses, mouthpiece valves, and duckbills. Plus most of those parts including the diaphragms are now available out of silicon and other long lasting elastomers. The modern hoses, diaphragms, etc. will last for a very long time if they are not damage by mechanical means like cuts (or having your little cat chew on one of your hoses ).
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Post by SeaRat on Feb 27, 2008 18:27:32 GMT -8
Gustov, First, thanks for supplying the photos of the insides of the New Mistral. I can now see what Luis and others have been saying about the lack of the venturi on this regulator. Someone made a real "mistake" by not placing that intake for the LP hose 90 degrees higher, and having one of the holes from the second stage valve aimed down the intake instead of at the case. That is the real cause of the breathing problems of this regulator. I'm glad that I rejected it when it was an option at a LDS. I really do not know why these designers sabotage their own design by these types of deficiencies! The technology has been out there since the 1950s, but it surely was not applied in this case. Concerning the jumping, I did a lot of jumping in the 1968-1978 time period in the USAF--parascuba jumping, that is. Luis, the trick is to enter the water with your feet and legs held up, fins pointed toward the sky. That way, they don't catch the water and twist. The other trick is to always turn into the wind, and use the wind to reduce your forward air speed as much as possible. I've never jumped the square canopy, but got pretty proficient in the S-17 (round canopy with a 7TU cut for forward air speed and turning). Before that, we used the S-10 parachute, which was the same round parabolic parachute with an oval cut and slip risers (much harder to steer, but you could get some amazing results by slipping, or even collapsing the canopy, to increase forward speed or loose altitude). When I left the USAF after 9 and a half years, I was a Master Parachutist. I haven't jumped since (no one paid me to). Here's a photo taken off Okinawa in 1968 of jumping, I believe with an S10 chute: The wind is coming from the left, and the jumper is facing the wind. Note that a square canopy can be a better chute design, but that it can get to ground speeds of some 15 or so knows. If you do a downwind landing with this 'chute, you can crash pretty hard. But if you are into the wind, you can completely negate the wind speed and come down soft as a feather. We did that too with the round parabolic canopy by enforcing wind speed restrictions during training jumps. If the wind speed was less than 10 knots, the round 'chute could handle it very nicely. Note the target one-man life raft is very close to where this jumper will land. Photo with a Nikonos I that I had jumped with, and by me. The jumper is holding the right riser group in his hand, and will release it upon landing. We disconnected the capwell release at about 50 feet, and hold it into the landing so as to ensure that the parachute collapsed and did not drag us. This jumper is also wearing the twin 42 cubic foot jump tanks that I have described in other threads. John
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Post by luis on Feb 27, 2008 19:12:19 GMT -8
Luis, the trick is to enter the water with your feet and legs held up, fins pointed toward the sky. John I never jumped over water...just land...with no fins...just for sport.
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Post by duckbill on Feb 27, 2008 21:53:38 GMT -8
Is that squishy little translucent dome which is over the first stage diaphragm just decorative? I don't feel any fluid under it, so I don't think it is environmentally sealed....or is it? If it isn't, can it be filled with silicone fluid and sealed?
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