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Post by scubalawyer on Jul 12, 2019 17:48:43 GMT -8
Scubalawyer- I have 2 Cyclones with HPR seconds, DBE's. Both of them are much easier breathing than this Phoenix.I think maybe I should put overhaul kit in it with a new high pressure diaphragm.... To me, it's worth the $30 for the Phoenix service kit. Fixed mine right up.
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Post by nikeajax on Jul 12, 2019 19:10:12 GMT -8
Skip, yeah, get the service kit, but only after you've given it your best shot with trying to troubleshoot what you've already got. Anyway, that's what I'd do, just to see if I could: how many regs you got? No hurry buddy! JB
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Post by snark3 on Jul 12, 2019 21:59:08 GMT -8
JB- I just did a quick mental inventory. I have about 30 +/- Nemrod- Snark 3 (4) Snark 2 (1) Poseidon Cycklon 300 (2) Jetstream (1) Sportsways HydroTwin1 (1)Hydrotwin 2 (1) Single hose (7) Healthways Scuba Star (1) Scubair (1) USD Double hose (6) Single Hose (8) Northill (2)
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Post by snark3 on Jul 12, 2019 21:59:54 GMT -8
I think maybe its a disease now
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Post by scubalawyer on Jul 12, 2019 23:05:22 GMT -8
Here is my Phoenix I installed on a Voit NAVY I had rechromed, added HPR, DBE, DSV, silicone main diaphragm, etc... breathes fantastically amazingly spectacularly superb (IMHO). M
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Post by snark3 on Jul 12, 2019 23:08:56 GMT -8
Great looking reg you have there.
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Post by herman on Jul 13, 2019 3:27:53 GMT -8
As long as the first stage is working properly and set up the same (IP), it is impossible for a diver (flow machines are a somewhat different story as they can flow a LOT more than a human) to tell the difference between a RAM, Cyclone or Phoenix. While the later 2 are CAPABLE of flowing of more gas, the limiting factor is the second stage so the extra flow doesn't matter. What you have to realize is 99% of the breathing performance of any reg is determined solely by the second stage. This is true of double hose as well as single hose regs. As long as IP is stable and withing the operating range of the second stage the user has no way of telling which first is delivering it. Any differences in the performance between 2 regs is the result of differences in the second stage (loop in the case of DH regs). The problems with the DA Phoenix above, assuming the IP is OK, has to be in the second stage loop. A quick check of the IP will determine if it's OK or not. The whole debate about which first stage, be it diaphragm or piston, USD or Scubapro, as long as we are discussing balanced first stages is a mute point since they are all capable of delivering a stable IP at a flow rate many times higher than any single (or 2 for that matter) divers can breath. If you are having performance issues, check the IP then concentrate on the second stage, your issues are there.
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Post by snark3 on Jul 13, 2019 6:54:04 GMT -8
Thanks Herman I'll look into the second. The IP is rock steady at 140.
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Post by SeaRat on Jul 13, 2019 8:14:59 GMT -8
As long as the first stage is working properly and set up the same (IP), it is impossible for a diver (flow machines are a somewhat different story as they can flow a LOT more than a human) to tell the difference between a RAM, Cyclone or Phoenix. While the later 2 are CAPABLE of flowing of more gas, the limiting factor is the second stage so the extra flow doesn't matter. What you have to realize is 99% of the breathing performance of any reg is determined solely by the second stage. This is true of double hose as well as single hose regs. As long as IP is stable and withing the operating range of the second stage the user has no way of telling which first is delivering it. Any differences in the performance between 2 regs is the result of differences in the second stage (loop in the case of DH regs). The problems with the DA Phoenix above, assuming the IP is OK, has to be in the second stage loop. A quick check of the IP will determine if it's OK or not. The whole debate about which first stage, be it diaphragm or piston, USD or Scubapro, as long as we are discussing balanced first stages is a mute point since they are all capable of delivering a stable IP at a flow rate many times higher than any single (or 2 for that matter) divers can breath. If you are having performance issues, check the IP then concentrate on the second stage, your issues are there. Herman, I think that the difference will be felt, but only on deep dives (I mean, really deep). For me, diving mostly in rivers and at a max depth of 25 or so feet, I probably won't feel the difference. But at depths of, say 150-200 feet, the first stage can (I've read in the NEDU reports) make a difference. Is that correct? John
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Post by vance on Jul 13, 2019 10:43:34 GMT -8
I think maybe its a disease now I'd call it a sickness, not a disease. A disease is what a doctor diagnoses. Diseases and medical conditions are what medical doctors can diagnose. Only a medical professional can diagnose a disease. Diseases are created and often diagnosed without any reference to cause. An illness is what you have. An illness is what the patient has. An illness is a negative health condition, with a cause. Every illness has a cause. You go to the doctor with an illness and you leave with a disease. I don't think any of us suffering from this sickness have been diagnosed by a medical professional. Yet. (My wife just might try to get me committed.) We just know we have it. The cause is clear. We bought one vintage regulator or piece of gear, and thought it was cool. Then we bought another and thought that even cooler. Next thing we know, we have to have each variation of a particular type, or all of a particular manufacturer's line. Some then collect the ads and catalogs that match their collection. The sickness has variants, but it all boils down to the same thing: Too much stuff that hardly anyone else would want.
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Post by herman on Jul 13, 2019 13:44:29 GMT -8
While at extremely deep depths the density of the air does come into play, that is way below the normal area that we dive in. Still, the flow capacity of the second stage and even more so the diver are the limiting factor. The second stage can only pass so much gas and we can only breath so much, both are a lot (like 4-5 times) less than even an average first stage can flow. To top it all off, this is assuming a supply capable of flowing at least as much gas as the second stage and as it turns out, most tank valves are not capable of flowing as much as a single quality second stage....a J valve even more so. To circle back to the original topic, as long as a first stage is performing properly....holding IP reasonably steady and allowing adequate flow which all modern balanced first stages easily do, the performance of a reg is solely determined by the second stage.
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Post by snark3 on Jul 13, 2019 14:09:38 GMT -8
Herman- if the HP diaphragm was extremely stiff (inflexible) could that limit the amount of air the reg could provide? The Old HP diaphragms I've replaced were all very stiff, the replacements were all flexible
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Post by nikeajax on Jul 13, 2019 15:25:20 GMT -8
Absolutely: if the lever isn't getting enough stroke caused by the diaphragm, that will limit the amount of air delivered because it's not opening far/long enough.
JB
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Post by herman on Jul 13, 2019 16:32:10 GMT -8
Could it, sure, is it likely, no. The total movement is in the 0.040-0.050 range (a little less than the thickness of a dime 0.053), closed to wide open. Enough for sufficient flow for one diver, a lot less. But again, this goes back to the IP, if IP stays within 10-15 psi (normal breathing) then the flow of the first stage is enough. If it drops more than that, now you are possibly looking at a first stage issue (or valve). We are discussing diver breathing flow rates, not wide open machine rates. Second stages just aren't that picky, even less so for balanced second stages but no DH uses them. To be in the range a diver can feel the difference in is more than you might imagine. For a diver to feel the shift in IP, it has to be pretty big, way more that any balanced first stage (properly working) will fluctuate. '
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Post by vance on Jul 13, 2019 17:06:18 GMT -8
Try to think of this as a fuel pump capacity vs. required fuel flow to run the engine. If you have a fuel pump that can provide enough gas to run a Ferrari, it will work with a lawn mower. The fuel pump is the first stage, the carburetor/fuel injection system is the second stage. If the fuel pump provides infinite gas, any engine will run perfectly if the carburetor delivers what the engine needs. Our first stages provide plenty of gas to the second stage, but, if the second stage is limited somehow, the diver doesn't get the air required.
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