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Post by Michel on Mar 6, 2008 17:28:03 GMT -8
Hi everyone, It seems that there have been some great vintage enthusiasts out there that have gone to the trouble of manufacturing some needed parts for our 2 hosers(corrugated hoses,diaphragms,mushroom valves not to mention the incredible work on the Phoenix)! Is this the way to go or do you think we should remain 'vintage' by sticking to original material like rubber and neoprene? If I'm not mistaken USD had started to ship late model RAMs with silicone mushroom valves and may have used more silicone in the double hoses if they had not stopped production of the RAM?! To think of it why have'nt we made clear silicone duckbills!!!!??? Now that I think would be an improvement.... What do you think? Michel A.
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Post by swimjim on Mar 6, 2008 18:35:04 GMT -8
If you want to dive the reg's your going to want silicone. At least that's my view. I don't just dive double hose to dive. Mostly I dive Lake Michigan wrecks. That requires gear that works and works well. The oem diaphragms for instance are hit and miss. Some are nice and loose. I have one in my Warner address Mistral that works great. I also have others that are stiff. The new silicone diaphragms, well, it's no contest. I also got a hold of the new silicone mouth piece mushroom valves. I thought it would be hard to tell the difference. Wrong. The new silicone ones blow the neoprene away. It's not even close. True, the rubber diaphragms and neoprene mouthpiece valves are "vintage". For the purist that would be fine. But when performance is key, silicone is the answer.
Jim
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Post by luis on Mar 6, 2008 19:30:52 GMT -8
Well, do you want a wall hanger or do you want to dive it?
I held on to my round label RAM that I have owned since 1971 and for over three decades I could not dive it because some of the rubber parts (duckbill and mouthpiece valves) had decayed. Thanks to the internet I found these websites and sources for reproduction parts.
Silicone parts will last a long time even under the Caribbean heat. If you want to be able to dive your DH into the future, IMO, silicone is the only way to go. Oh BTW, silicone is rubber.
I also dough that today’s neoprene rubber is the exact same compound that they used 40 years ago, so it probably won’t be an exact reproduction anyway.
One of the most important design criteria’s for the Phoenix was knowing that there will be a reliable availability of parts way into the future. It was an easy choice to go with the RAM, Conshelf, Titan, etc., etc., etc…type of first stage.
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Post by duckbill on Mar 6, 2008 22:33:02 GMT -8
Well, do you want to dive "vintage", or dive old gear that has been brought "up-to-date"?
I appreciate the silicone products as insurance for a rainy day when (may it never be) there are no more parts available and the neoprene parts are deteriorating beyond reasonable useablity. I have several sets of silicone mouthpieces, mouthpiece valves, and hoses stashed away for that day. Thankfully, the way things are presently going, it seems that day is becoming quite distant indeed.
When I dive my vintage gear, I prefer to dive it the way divers were diving it in the '50s and '60s. It was fine for them then, and it is fine for me now if I want to relive their experience. That is what turns me on about diving vintage gear. This site is dedicated to preserving diving history, and that is my passion as well.
So, silicone, yes. But then there is also EPDM(?) rubber, which also lasts a long time but doesn't "taste" like neoprene and isn't original, as well as latex rubber. Silicone is great in it's place and for those who just want to dive souped-up old gear, but I personally appreciate neoprene parts for that genuine vintage diving experience.
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Post by luis on Mar 7, 2008 6:27:50 GMT -8
Well, the way I see it, neoprene rubber changes with time, so even if you are diving the exact same parts…you are actually not diving the exact same parts (they have changed). I have a couple of original diaphragms that are very soft and in great shape, but if I thought that they were in actual original condition, I would be fooling myself. I dove my round label RAM back when it was brand new and I will be the first one to acknowledge that there is no way for me to remember how it performed back then. But, I also worked in a dive shop and did measure its performance and although I don’t remember the exact numbers, it was very respectable. At the time the Scubapro Mk-5 was our primary top of the line seller to compare it to. Some of this is like trying to figure out what was the exact tone of yellow on the yellow hoses. It is impossible. All the rubber parts have changed with time and so have the color photographs of the era. Therefore, IMHO, feeling that you are diving closer to true vintage with old neoprene parts is mostly psychological…it is not real, it has all changed, but that is OK. I just think you may be kidding yourself if you think it is just like it was and you are getting the exact same experience. Whether it is neoprene, EPDM, or silicone it is all rubber with some similar and some different properties. If it looks the same and performs the same, that is IMO the best you can hope for. IMHO some of the silicon may actually perform closer to the original parts (and it will hold that performance longer), but we will never know…that is unless we start working on a time traveling machine. On the other hand, if it performs better than it did when I was a kid, well that is what I was always trying to do back then also…so guess what? I am actually reviving my past. ;D Oh, and if you want to start reproducing parts in neoprene rubber, go ahead…just don’t expect that you are going to get the exact same compound either.
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Post by SeaRat on Mar 7, 2008 9:15:10 GMT -8
Silicone was the future a long time ago, with silicone masks, snorkels, etc. I have a pair of the original USD non-returns in the mouthpiece of my Trieste II. But USD never did, to my knowledge, make duckbills out of silicone. Making parts for a double hose regulator out of silicone enhances the life of those parts. Saying that, it is possible to "preserve" or take care of neoprene parts for an almost indefinite time. Duckbill valves may be the exception, as they are in contact with the inside tube and very difficult to properly clean without actually removing them. I just received a new duckbill from Dan, and it's not the flimsy thing that USD put out, but a very nicely constructed valve which should last much longer than the USD originals. So improvements have been made there too. I have had non-return valves last many years, and duckbill valves too. They need to be taken out once in a while, and coated with silicone grease. So far as the performance goes, I would not expect much difference in the duckbills. In the non-returns, it is probable that the more flexible silicone will perform better, as this is a fairly critical airway path, and if the valve is stiffer, it will inhibit the air flow. But the size of the opening makes the most difference. For instance, a Healthways neoprene mouthpiece (double hose reg) will never perform as well as the USD mouthpiece, because of the physical size differences of the openings. The only way I've gotten a Healthways mouthpiece to function really well is to completely carve out and remove the wagon wheel for the non-return, and not use a non-return in that part of the mouthpiece. I just got my ol' Mistral going again with neoprene parts and yellow hoses, and I don't think it will make much difference in the performance of that regulator because of the wonderful venturi on the ol' Mistral. By the way, I don't think a transparent duckbill would be really nice, as it would show all the "stuff" growing on the inside Or, maybe that would be good, to get people to clean their gear, including the inside of the hoses. John
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Post by Broxton Carol on Mar 7, 2008 9:53:33 GMT -8
I just checked out a ROYAL for a guy yesterday, and tuned it up. All it needed was a duckbill. The original turned to sticky stuff. The mouthpiece valves were still excellent, and the black diaphragm still good. I installed one of Dans black duckbills, then set everything, and after closing it back up and putting the hoses back on, hooked it to a tank, and it breathed ON LAND, just so smoothly, and there was absoloutly NO noticable effort to get it to flow. Thats a 35 year old reg, and its working as good as new. Once in the water it will breathe even smooooooooother! All the sucker bait about special valves and diaphragms is just to lure the money out of your pocket into someone elses. Wise up.
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Post by Michel on Mar 7, 2008 11:01:30 GMT -8
Well, IMHO I think it's fun and interesting to have a choice and to experiment a 'little',it makes and keeps the equipment working and who knows maybe increasing performance a bit. Most of my regs are stock and function superbly just as they did when I was a teenager diving with my brother's '62 dull chrome AM,as a matter of fact only the RAM and late round label AM breath a 'tad' better,and I'm not talking night and day differences! I agree with many of you,I have not had a bad old diaghram to date and one NOS I was able to score from a secret source was incredibly pliable! I'm a believer in restoring and preservation but also pushing the envelope,I mean is it not the 'American' way? I also agree that Dan's duckbills are much better and will last longer than the USDs that turned to jelly but clear silicone should be tried. On another note has anybody had experience below 200ft with an AM or a RAM in recent years?I've only ever done the mid 100s myself. Michel A.
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Post by shackle on Mar 7, 2008 11:11:34 GMT -8
.... I love the smell of neoprene in the morning. BTY I'm not sure but I think Nemrod here on the forum has taken it down around that depth. Maybe he'll chime in here after he and SeaRat finish sparring.
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Post by shackle on Mar 7, 2008 11:13:38 GMT -8
BY the way...that should have been BTW..not BTY above.
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Post by Broxton Carol on Mar 7, 2008 11:51:42 GMT -8
back in the 60's there was every gizmo on the market to make your car faster, better handling, give more horsepower, and just become a wondermobile to drive. Like gyroscopic wheel stabalizers, high intensity spark coils, screens to put down on the manifold to make the gas mix better, and transistor ignition etc. A car properly maintained worked fine with no real appreciation of performance with any of this sucker bait. think long and hard before you throw away your money on experiments. Whats the warrantee on this stuff? Is it guarenteed? Once your moneys gone. you wont get it back.
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Post by DavidRitchieWilson on Mar 8, 2008 3:08:18 GMT -8
I've hesitated to respond so far to this thread as the messages relate to the use of silicone in regulators and my interest is in vintage snorkelling. However, silicone has made inroads into basic equipment, hugely in the case of dive masks and more modestly in the case of fins, where there are a few swim-training models made of that material. From my point of view, diving equipment is the product of three different disciplines: engineering, design and economics. Michel's proposition that silicone is "the future" may well be true in engineering terms. I don't know enough to argue against this stance. However, product development isn't just a science, it's also an art, which is where design comes in. Silicone masks may be the best invention "since sliced bread" as we say here in the UK, quite irrationally I'm sure, I heartily dislike the material because it looks and feels wrong when I wear items made of it. I prefer my rubber-skirted oval masks, which may prove less durable, but which feel right, seal perfectly and can still be purchased new in colours such as blue if you look hard for them. The third perspective, economics, can be the spoiler in all this. I get the impression that manufacturers can make more money out of so-called "modern" or "space-age" oil-derived materials which also seem easier to process, thus maximising their profits. This results in a limitation of choice, as manufacturers drop those less profitable product lines which are made of natural materials.
So I have no reason to disagree that the future may be silicone. On the other hand, I would prefer a future where there is a choice of materials, so consumers can select not only what is the latest scientific development but also what appeals to them aesthetically, which may not be the same thing at all.
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Post by nemrod on Mar 18, 2008 7:06:03 GMT -8
Do you want to hang it on the wall or dive it--ditto. If your going to dive it the advantages of silicone outweigh all other aspects. The new silicone diaphrams are very responsive and easy to tune and will not stiffen with age. The silicone cage valves make a huge improvement in breathing performance. The new to us all silicone duckbill is I bet amazing, will soon find out. It sure will be nice not to have to pull the duckbills and store them in talcum or have them turn to goo and melt to the brass horn. Not only that, they will be the correct thickness so you can use correct attach hardware. The silicone hoses, I like them, for one thing, they too are the correct thickness. I can see why some might prefer neoprene--real neoprene. The silicone hoses are a bit more springy, a touch lighter (but that is because I am comparing them to the heavy and THICK edpm rubber repros, compared to NOS they are about the same) and of course they will last forever and do not degrade or stiffen. AND, they look correct. The one's I have in yellow, black and grey are from the British Hose Master, Stuart. Soon in addition to the new silicone duckbill (what a godsend, thank you) there seems to be some new silicone mouthpieces in the works. I for one am all over that because all of these old age stiffened and torn and cracking mouthpieces are getting hard on my poor teeth and gums. If there were new neoprene alternatives it might be a horse race but since there is not except for cage valves the argument is mute, silicone is were it is going. No, on the depth, about 160 is as deep as I have been. A couple of years ago a group headed down to about 200 at Wazee, it was to cold for me, I hate cold and dark. Me--I am a warm water ocean diver, y'all can have that quarry crap. My siliconed to the max and soon full silicone PRAM breaths just as easy at 150 plus as it does at the surface. Right now I have vss duckbills in my twin hosers. I like the long trim and they are thinner and just seem to work real nice. I think the new silicone duckbills are black and it is going to be really--really hard to resist that animal. Masks, all of my true vintage rubber goods, some purchased NOS in box at high dollars and some I have owned since forever--they are falling apart. Forty year old rubber goods even NITB are still forty year old rubber goods. Once you start to use them they rapidly decay. I am about done buying old junk on ebay at high dollars only to have it arrive and fall apart like some old Egyption mummy in my hands when I pull it from the box. No thanks, I love my NEW manufacture UDTs--thanks Dan and vss and I will love a new classic oval in silicone. Right now the only oval mask I have that is still decent is the new one I got from vss a couple of years ago, all of my other high dollar vintage ones are stiff, cracked, broken (except for a blue Healthways). Silicone, g-o-o-o-o-d-d-d!!!! There was this other material, pure gum rubber, sure would love some real gum rubber ovals and UDTs So your choice is old, worn down and busted or shiny, happy and new and silicone. I take the latter. Nem
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Post by nemrod on Mar 18, 2008 7:14:01 GMT -8
.... I love the smell of neoprene in the morning. BTY I'm not sure but I think Nemrod here on the forum has taken it down around that depth. Maybe he'll chime in here after he and SeaRat finish sparring. Uh, excuse' moi ;D . I forgot all all about that, thanks for reminding me . Nem
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Post by duckbill on Mar 18, 2008 12:17:52 GMT -8
Masks, all of my true vintage rubber goods, some purchased NOS in box at high dollars and some I have owned since forever--they are falling apart. Forty year old rubber goods even NITB are still forty year old rubber goods. Once you start to use them they rapidly decay. Nem I hear you James. I will dive my vintage neoprene gear for as long as I can , but I do have a U.S. Divers oval mask with what seems like a black silicone skirt locked away for future use when (not "if") it gets to that point. I just wish it didn't have finger pockets. Can't have everything I guess. Sorry to hear you found so much of your neoprene articles ruined this season. Seems odd they all went kaput at the same time. Are you sure something environmental wasn't getting at them? So far, so good for my favorite mask- knock on wood- but I know the marriage must end someday :-(
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