Dolphins - please sign

[vintagefrank]

Hi there,

I think this is a problem that we should all protest against. Anyone who loves diving and the sea should try to prevent this:

See this video on slaughtering dolphins in Japan for delicatesses...
www.glumbert.com/media/dolphin

There is a petition online to set your protest:
www.petitiononline.com/golfinho/

Please join to change this!

frank

[SeaRat]

Frank,

Thank you for posting this. I have signed the petition, #152134. In it I said the following:

I have watched the short video of this killing of dolphins. Please know that these are intelligent beings, able to understand what is happening to them, to think, to comprehend, and to know about their betrayal. They are not "fish," but mammals like us. Please stop this, and stop it now!

I urge others on this forum to do the same.

John

[shackle]

Done #175571

[Glenn "Whitebear" Kennedy]

Done, with this message.
"Mr. Prime Minister, we must stop this killing of intelligent mammals. I understand that Japan , and the rest of the world need to take food from the sea, but we have a responsibility to be better stewards of our world."

[broxton]

Done

[scubadiverbob]

no. 177121

[bsea]

Done

177512

[duckbill]

If intelligence is a criterion, then where are the marchers out protecting the octopus?! People get too emotionally attached to "cute" animals. Think about that. Sorry to be so blunt.

[fishb0y]

How did I end up on Scubaboard?

[SeaRat]

duckbill said:

If intelligence is a criterion, then where are the marchers out protecting the octopus?! People get too emotionally attached to "cute" animals. Think about that. Sorry to be so blunt.

Nemrod,

The comparison is not quite valid. First, yes an octopus is probably the most intelligent invertebrate in the animal kingdom. But it does not interact with humans like the dolphins have. Also, and most obvious, it is an invertebrate, and it has a very short comparitive life span.

Dolphins may be "cute" to you, but to me they are much more. They have a more sophisticated sensing system than do we, the ability to communicate over distances (ever see an octopus do that?), and the cognative ability to "think" and figure out things. This is not "anthropomorphizing" the dolphin; these have been shown in scientific studies.

This is not a new problem for the Dall's porpoises. I have a book, Marine Mammals, Edited by Delphine Haley[/B], Pacific Search Press, 1978, which has a section on "Porpoises and Dolphins." In it, Stephen Leatherwood and Randall R. Reeves discuss this situation:

Of the species covered in this chapter, the Dall's porpoise may present the most serious conservation problem. In addition to large numbers taken intentionally for food off Hakkaido and Honshu, Japan, more than ten thousand are killed and discarded annually by the Japanese salmon fisheries, which use drift gill nets. Although mose of this incidental mortality occurs in the western half of the North Pacific, some occurs in United States waters of the eastern North Pacific. The relationships among stocks of Dall's porpoises are unknown, although three separate stock units have been postulated in the western North Pacific. (page 107)

The editor, Delphine Haley, had an extensive discussion on "Cetaceans," stating:

Interest in cetacean intelligence has increased in recent years because of knowledge that the whale has an eceptionally large brain and because of the remarkable behavior of dolphins in captivity. Cetaceans are the only animals, other than the elephant, to have a brain larger than man, although the significance of this brain size in terms of "intelligence" is not known. The brain of the sperm whale weighs 20 pounds; the elephant, 10 pounds, the bottlenose dolphin, 3.75 pounds; and man, 3 pounds. The surface of the cetacean brain is highly convoluted with deep and complex folds similar to those in the human brain. Two of the most successfully adapted species--the sperm and killer whales--have unusaally large brains with cerebrums more elaborately folded and with greater surface areas than in man. In captivity, dolphins have shown a considerable capacity for learning. They have shown the ability to recognize signals and shapes, to solve problems, to learn by observing, to combine and generalize about new behaviors, even to invent new behaviors of their own. Like some other cetaceans, they communicate with each other and seem to have some social structure. They have a well-developed sense of play and care-giving--not only toward their own kind but toward man. Many aspects of cetacean intelligence are still unknown, perhaps unknowable. Although whales have a large brain capacity and physiologically their brains function basically like those of other animils, their intellectual activity is not necessarily the same. Intelligence in these animals, given the differences in anatomy and environment, is difficult to measure in human terms...

...The story of man's relationship to the whales and dolphins is a long litany of exploitation. Suffice it to say that the cetaceans--having survived evultion's most rigorous challenges--may find the challenge of man insurmountable. It is an all too obvious fact that in human hands rests the doubtful fate of the ocean monarchs, the grandest and most intelligent beings in the seas. (Pages 27 & 29)

Nemrod, I know that you expect me to come down on you hard on this one, but I'm not going to, as you have stimulated me to re-read this wonderful book that I've had for many years. I find the cetaceans fascinating creatures, and have studied their swimming movements to try to emulate them in the water. We will never do 30 mph, but divers can be better streamlined than they are now. Vintage divers are better streamlined than most divers are now too. But we have so much to learn from and of these wonderful creatures of the seas that it pains me greatly to see them treated the way those Japanese villagers were shown in this tape. I know that many, many people, perhaps still a majority, have views similar to yours on this subject. I would hope that you, and the others, would look more deeply into the biology, the swimming movements, the studies on their intelligence, their social lives, and all that makes these such awe-inspiring creatures to me.

John

[Linda]

Just to straighten things out, John, it was Terry (duckbill) that offered up the comment that you reacted to... not Nemrod.

Also, I guess I understood the comment in a whole different way.

If intelligence is a criterion, then where are the marchers out protecting the octopus?!

I took it to mean that we should also protect the so-called "dumb" or "ugly" animals, as well as the cute and intelligent ones... In other words, we should protect all living things and not have this knee-jerk reaction only when a "cute" and "smart" one comes up....

Maybe I took it wrong. But to me, that's a valid point. I didn't think he meant we should NOT protect the dolphins, but that we should protect all creatures. Maybe I am mistaken... ?

[scubadubado]

Count me in #216701

[duckbill]

Linda, thankyou for straightening that out. Maybe he was calling me "Nimrod"
What I was attempting to do was to point out the illogic of the approach, without commenting on whether I agree with the petition or not.

Below is the response I wrote for John before I saw your post. My opinion may dissappoint you, but I do believe everyone here means well, no matter what their viewpoint.


So, my intent is not to offend, but, rather, to cause to think......
------------------------
(First off, dolphins are not endangered, so let's not pretend that is part of the issue)

Killing and slaughtering ANY animal is not a pretty sight. Most city dwellers who purchase their animals all skinned, gutted and neatly wrapped in cellophane at the local Safeway go into shock when they are faced with the reality of the process. I know you mean well.

It's so easy to jump to action when emotions are aroused. Sometimes it's good to check your perspective before judging someone else's actions and condemning them for it. I don't live in Japan, so I don't feel qualified to dictate their way of life.

BUT, if I DID live in Japan, I suppose I would know that "Most of Japan's nearly 130 million people are squeezed into about 30 percent of its habitable land along the coast-a space roughly the size of Arkansas. Almost all of it is urban. Much of Japan's eastern coast is a megalopolis, an unbroken string of gigantic cities that stretch south from the largest, Tokyo, with more than eight million residents. At 337 persons per square kilometer, Japan's population density ranks fourth among nations with a population of 10 million or more." (italics mine)
(http://facweb.cs.depaul.edu/yele/Course/IS540/Global-Project/2003/Japan/population.html)

Japan is an island nation. Most of the land mass is moutainous- uninhabitable and unsuitable for agriculture. Only one acre in 7 (total land mass) was suitable for farming in 1957 (1957 World Book Encyclopedia). Much of that has been used for metropolitan growth. Most of the farmable land (as little as there is remaining) is used to produce rice, Japan's staple food item. Therefore, Japan has done what would only be natural and necessary under such conditions. They have relied on the surrounding sea to feed them. Their people have to eat more than just rice, and I can't blame them for striving to be sovereign and self-reliant. Far be it from me to tell them that I in America approve of them eating one species but not another just because I'm a diver who draws a "line" based on what I feel is "intelligent" enough to be left alone rather than eaten. I'm sure Japan's fishermen feel the burden of responsibility for feeding their nation. I think we should leave THEM alone.

Besides, where is the line drawn, and who get's to draw it? Does brain size of the food item really matter? A dolphin's brain is larger than ours. Are they smarter? What about pound for pound? A cattle's brain is larger than a dolphin's in proportion to it's body mass. So is it worse to kill a cattle than a dolphin? By the way, a common dolphin's brain is about half the size of a bottlenose dolphin's. (And, aren't cattle "cuter"?!)
Some people bypass "line-drawing" and the inevitable hypocricy completely, by going "vegetarian". That is an individual's choice, but in no way does it give that one the right to judge or condemn those who continue in their role of an omnivore.

Anyway, as you pointed out:

searat said:

They have a more sophisticated sensing system than do we, the ability to communicate over distances (ever see an octopus do that?), and the cognative ability to "think" and figure out things. This is not "anthropomorphizing" the dolphin; these have been shown in scientific studies.

So, it seems the petition is unnecessary afterall, since dolphins will soon learn to avoid fishing vessels altogether, thanks to their "intelligence" and ability to communicate with one another.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is my last post on this subject. It may have come as a surprise to the original poster (and others) that there is more than one side to this issue. Some care for the Japanese people.
I concur with fishb0y, as this thread isn't really directly relevant to vintage diving.

[SeaRat]

First, my apologies to Nemrod. I had just gotten through with a biostatistics class, and my brain was a bit fried last evening. That, and the day before we (my wife and I) totally thrashed our bodies with 3.5 hours of cross-country skiing.

Duckbill, I understand your position on this, and it is one that a lot of people have. Your intent was a good one, to get us to think, and I have been doing that. We (in the USA) have made consessions to help dolphins and porpoises, such as having tuna marketed as "dolphin-free" so that we know that the tuna was captured in a way that enables dolphins to be released from the nets. I still am in awe of dolphins and porpoises from my biological perspective. These animals are the best-adapted animals to their environment on earth, biologically (we don't adapt biologically, but by use of our thinking ability and our hands to make things to adapt us to our environment, including making scuba gear, or re-making vintage scuba gear).

Part of diving is to enjoy the water environment, and that is where the dolphins and porpoises live. Vintage diving allows us the freedom to get as streamlined as possible in our diving, which is something that other types of scuba diving does not do. It gives me the "feel" for the water that I cannot get with modern gear. This "feeling" could be comparable to the freedom and playfulness that dolphines and porpoises get in the water. I'll never get to where they are, but I will enjoy the water just as much.

John