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Post by duckbill on Sept 16, 2007 14:07:21 GMT -8
And here is the bottom line in summary, "........call in the womenfolk"!
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jviss
Pro Diver
Posts: 209
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Post by jviss on Sept 18, 2007 6:40:13 GMT -8
John, thank you very much for the scanned pages! Best information I've gotten so far. I found most interesting the wrinkles around the waist and knees in the finished suit picture on the right.
I haven't found sharkskin yet, and I'm still waiting for my Rubatex samples.
Wow, I really wish I could find a pattern, like the one shown in the book, which the book says is from Fenjohn: "Fenjohn puts out an inexpensive kit that includes three large sheets of foam neoprene, cement and a full set of paper patterns (small, medium or large) from which you can make a full-length suit and helmet."
Any idea what the reinforcing strips are made of? And what do they mean when they say the strips are used on the edges?
One could probably recreate these patterns from an examination of these scanned pages; the front and back torso pieces, a sleeve, the collar, and the pants pieces are pretty clearly visible.
Hey, am I nuts, or would there be demand in the community of vintage divers for a kit?
Thanks!
Question - does anyone have a current source of small quantity wetsuit quality neoprene sheets and zippers?
Regards,
jv
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Post by SeaRat on Sept 18, 2007 8:23:14 GMT -8
And here is the bottom line in summary, "........call in the womenfolk"! My wife wouldn't touch this stuff--that's my responsibility only. John
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Post by SeaRat on Sept 18, 2007 8:38:06 GMT -8
jv, A couple of points here: --The reinforcing strips were made of 1/8 inch neoprene, cut into strips. We used to be able to get those in rolls that we could glue onto the suits, either over the seams, of as decoration: That's how the Cousteau teams got their yellow stripes, and a lot of us followed suit as it was much more photogenic than a plane black suit. The above photo is of me in the early 1970s, with one of my first wet suits on (dating back to the 1960s, with the yellow neoprene tape on it that I applied myself). Concerning covering the edges, many people put them on the arm and leg ends to make a "rolled edge" before sewing could do this. It created a seal which inhibited water from entering the suit. Now, as an industrial hygienist, I must point out one thing about making these suits. They use a glue that has some rather hazardous organic vapors (toluene, etc.). They used to be much more hazardous, as the glues in the 1960s contained benzene. One dive shop owner I knew who made wet suits ultimately contracted cancer, and his exposure to these organic vapors probably contributed to this. If you decide to make your own wet suit, booties, or gloves, be aware of these organic vapors, and use it only in a well-ventilated area, or use an organic vapor cartridge half-face respirator (minimum) when you work with the solvent glues. These cartridge respirators are available in hardware stores and safety supply houses (some are on-line, such as Lab Safety). Learn to make the face seal checks, and ensure that the respirator fits correctly. Then go about your activities with these suits. Now, when these seams are glued, they need at least two layers of neoprene cement on the edges. The first layer should be allowed to dry completely (a couple of hours). This seals the neoprene's foam area. Then put the second layer onto the seam, on both sides, and allow it to dry until it is still slightly sticky, but not wet. The glues will now adhere to the surfaces if they are pushed firmly together. Be carefull how you do this, as they will adhere in whatever manner you first contact the seams. If they are misaligned, then you must pull them apart and start over. Good luck, John
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jviss
Pro Diver
Posts: 209
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Post by jviss on Sept 18, 2007 11:32:12 GMT -8
Hey John, thanks again. Cool picture!
On the solvents and glues, I'm thinking good old fashioned wet suit cement from Trident Products, and whatever thinner/solvent they recommend. For cleaning edges I'm sure there are many modern solvents that will do - I plan on getting recommendations from the rubber manufacturer.
As for the dive shop owner, and as a former forensic scientist, I'd have to say you're going way out on a limb assigning his cancer wetsuit solvent and cement fumes - how would you know? What kind of cancer was it?
By the way, I've done wetsuit and neoprene drysuit repairs and modifications, so I'm somewhat familiar with the process.
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Post by duckbill on Sept 18, 2007 15:47:36 GMT -8
jviss, for a pattern, why don't you just get a cheap $25 wetsuit from eBay (nylon lined), cut it apart at the seams, trace the pieces on paper, and change the dimensions to suit your own measurements? It shouldn't be too hard to do that.
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Post by SeaRat on Sept 18, 2007 20:44:09 GMT -8
Hey John, thanks again. Cool picture! On the solvents and glues, I'm thinking good old fashioned wet suit cement from Trident Products, and whatever thinner/solvent they recommend. For cleaning edges I'm sure there are many modern solvents that will do - I plan on getting recommendations from the rubber manufacturer. As for the dive shop owner, and as a former forensic scientist, I'd have to say you're going way out on a limb assigning his cancer wetsuit solvent and cement fumes - how would you know? What kind of cancer was it? By the way, I've done wetsuit and neoprene drysuit repairs and modifications, so I'm somewhat familiar with the process. jviss, First, the solvent is already in the wet suit cement. You don't need to add any. Now, the following is going to get a bit technical, so bear with me. I understand that the dive shop owner died of a leukemia, but this is from years ago memory. I am fairly certain that benzene was a large component of wet suit neoprene cement during the 1950s and 1960s, and perhaps later. According to the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) Threshold Limit Values for Chemical Substances and Physical Agents handbook, the 8-hour Time-Weighted Value (TLV) for benzene is 0.5 ppm, with a Short-Term Exposure Limit of 2.5 ppm (a 15 minute limit). Benzene can also be absorbed through the skin. It has an ACGIH A1 designation, which means, "A1-- Confirmed Human Carcinogen: The agent is carcinogenic to humans based on the weight of evidence from epidemiologic studies." Another text I have states: As I stated, I think the wet suit cement of the time probably contributed to his cancer. I don't know that as a fact, but his wife stated that the concentrations of organic vapors in his attic, where he made the wet suits, drove her out of the area. I do know, as an industrial hygienist, that protective measures are necessary for all organic vapors. I have a bottle of Trident Neoprene Cement, and the label states that it has "black carbon, toluene, methyl ethyl ketone, hexane, heptane, 2-methyl pentane, 3-methyl pentene, and solvent naphta (petrolium." The TLVs for each of these are: Toluene: 20 ppm (ACGIH) MEK: 200 ppm (ACGIH) Hexane: 50 ppm (n-Hexane; 500 ppm for other isomers) (ACGIH) 2-methyl pentane: 600 ppm (ACGIH) 3-methyl pentane: 600 ppm (basically, all isomers of pentane) (ACGIH) naphtha (ceal tar): 100 ppm (NIOSH REL, OSHA PEL) The MSDS can be located at this website address: www.tridentdive.com/aalp31.pdfThis is an out-of-date MSDS (anything over 3 years is out-of-date), but it is for the Trident neoprene cement. The TLV values are outdated too (mine, above, are from the 2007 TLV Booklet). While it is no longer a carcinogen, it does have health effects, and therefore you do need either very good ventilation or an organic vapor cartridge. John
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jviss
Pro Diver
Posts: 209
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Post by jviss on Sept 19, 2007 6:27:40 GMT -8
Hi John,
I agree with you on using ventilation and using a respirator - I have a respirator with activated charcoal elements.
However, as a scientist and engineer, I have to disagree with your conclusion that "the wet suit cement of the time probably contributed to his cancer." Yea, maybe, but not probably, there is simply no way to know. What about his family history with leukemia, which is a much, much stronger risk than environment?
I remember in organic chemistry class in the 70's using benzene, and then the removal of it in favor of a supposedly non-carcinogenic solvent. What about all the folks who handled benzene daily for years and never got cancer?
Anyway, it's always wise to protect oneself from hazardous materials, I agree.
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Post by scubadiverbob on Sept 19, 2007 9:20:29 GMT -8
This is off subject a little bit.
Just curious, I used to use 1,1,1-trichloroethane by the 5 gallon drums in the Navy, then they disposed of it by dropping it overboard on top of the dolphins. I got cancer and almost died from it. Wonder what ever happened to the dolphins? The Navy finally said that trichloro was carcinogenic and switched to trichloroethylene (which doesn't cause cancer; according to the Navy). I never got benefits from this; as, the VA said I had to prove that trichloro caused my cancer. Went to CalOSHA and they said the chemical was banned from use in the state; but, couldn't tell me what typs of cancer it causes. Why was it banned?
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Post by crimediver on Sept 19, 2007 15:50:36 GMT -8
I heard it was banned after being linked to the deaths of hundreds of dolphins.
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Post by SeaRat on Sept 19, 2007 18:02:15 GMT -8
jviss,
I thought I hedged it enough by saying "probably contributed..." rather than "probably caused..." I'll back off just a bit more and say "may have contributed...," but that's as far as I'll go. You'll have to agree that, as a chemical in the body, benzene being an "A1--confirmed human carcinogen" is a dirty, bad actor of a chemical. By the way, we still have it around in our gasoline. Maybe I have it in for benzene, because my Dad washed his hands in gasoline for years, and came down with a very weird bone marrow disease that is apparently (hedging again) linked to benzene exposure. Hopefully, no one on this forum still washes his/her hands with gasoline.
Scubadiverbob,
Both 1,1,2-Trichloroethane, with a TWA-TLV of 10 ppm, and trichloroethylene, with the same TWA-TLV (time-weighted average threshold limit value), can cause cancer in animals.
1,1,2-trichloroethane is noted in the 2007 TLV Booklet as having an A3 designation, meaning that it is a:
The ACGIH TLV Booklet says that the basis for the TLV values for 1,1,2-Trichloroethane are CNS impairment and liver damage.
Trichloroethylene has an A2 designation:
I'll need to do more research to see about toxicity to aquatic life.
John
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Post by scubadiverbob on Sept 19, 2007 18:54:09 GMT -8
John,
I guess dumping the stuff in the ocean, it would dissipate easily and quickly. We used trichloro on the Coral Sea, in a sonic cleaner, in a confined compartment. Everyone used to get headaches and symptoms like getting high. Breathing the stuff had weird effects (the sonic cleaner would heat the stuff up and make fumes). Guess it was better than Carbon Tetrachloride (CCL4) which is what trichloroethane replaced. The stuff really was a good degreaser!
Anyone know where I can get an Maintence Requirement Card (MRC) for teletype from the late 70's to early 80's? I need to prove to the VA what chemicals I was exposed to. I worked on Model 28, Model 33, Model 35, Model 37, and Model 40 TTY. They don't believe me.
Well, back to more important stuff. I got my tank filled; but, to much other stuff to take care of so it'll be a week or so till I get to dive (bummer). I got so many bills to pay I got to go diving! It get's my mind off of PG&E and AT&T and everyone else that wants to suck me dry. I got to go get wet!
Robert
(for those not on the west coast; PG&E is Pacific Gas and Electric. They declared bankruptcy; but, they don't ever show lenancy to their customers! When they want money they want it now. They can have black outs and brown outs anytime they please, though).
And jv; sorry I don't know more about wetsuits; except, I hate having to wear them.
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jviss
Pro Diver
Posts: 209
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Post by jviss on Oct 2, 2007 13:30:05 GMT -8
Update: I have some 1/4" Rubatex G231N on the way, supposedly (according to some, anyway), primo wetsuit material. Probably more than enough for a whole suit for me.
Unfortunately it's only available in black, smooth. Orange would have been cool, like the suits in Thunderball - but I'm not sure they were orange colored rubber, or fabric laminated - anyone know?
The turnbuttons for the beavertail I have - same hardware as is sued on my boat canvass.
What I need now is a source for zippers. I'd like name-brand (that means YKK, I guess) heavy, nickel-plated brass. I guess I have to sew them in, although glue-in would certainly be easier.
I also need some thinner foam for an inside flap for hte zippers. Also need a seam reinforcing tape, also probably thinner foam, or perhaps just thin solid rubber tape.
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Post by duckbill on Oct 2, 2007 14:50:58 GMT -8
The bond of modern wetsuit adhesives is pretty good. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get away with gluing the zippers in, if done properly. In fact, I'd bet that home-manufactured wetsuits of the 1960s rarely had a stich anywhere in their construction.
Also, since you are using 1/4" material, the "reinforcing tape" is not necessary or even recommended. JMHO.
No surprise on only smooth being available.
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 2, 2007 17:33:04 GMT -8
Update: I have some 1/4" Rubatex G231N on the way, supposedly (according to some, anyway), primo wetsuit material. Probably more than enough for a whole suit for me. Unfortunately it's only available in black, smooth. Orange would have been cool, like the suits in Thunderball - but I'm not sure they were orange colored rubber, or fabric laminated - anyone know? The turnbuttons for the beavertail I have - same hardware as is sued on my boat canvass. What I need now is a source for zippers. I'd like name-brand (that means YKK, I guess) heavy, nickel-plated brass. I guess I have to sew them in[/I}, although glue-in would certainly be easier.
I also need some thinner foam for an inside flap for hte zippers. Also need a seam reinforcing tape, also probably thinner foam, or perhaps just thin solid rubber tape.
Concerning the zippers, I'm not sure you want to do that (see the highlighed text, above) . It could get dangerous. I think that nylon zippers, although not vintage, would be better for the wet suits. Duckbill is right, you really do not need to reinforce the seams on 1/4 inch neoprene. I've seen them tear, but not at the seams. The material will tear where it is weakest. My first wet suit had numerous tears repaired in it. Concerning colored material, they add something to the material to make it a color, and it is not as strong afterwards. So don't wish for orange or yellow, as after some years they will tear out more easily. Here is a photo of me in my first wet suit, in about 1963. (Photo by the then Elaine McGinnis, Salem, Oregon) It is a White Stag suit, with yellow center section. That yellow decayed much more quickly than did the black. I was going to dive in Clear Lake with that suit when I was in High School, and ripped the back of it for about a foot and a half. Now, Clear Lake is about 38 degrees year-round, so that made for a pretty cold dive. But I was young, and there was a girl involved too ('same one who took the above photo), so I toughed it out for about 45 minutes. It probably increased my air consumption somewhat though. John
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