ralphl
Regular Diver
Posts: 35
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Post by ralphl on Sept 25, 2007 8:27:27 GMT -8
Aw Chuck, how can you say that? Dive shops rely on our regular equipment service fees to stay in business. Oh, on second thought, that may be why so many manufacturers require annual service to maintain a valid warranty.
Seriously, why does a regulator need service so frequently? With so few moving parts, what is the purpose? I can see servicing a reg that has been sitting around for years, just to make sure the moving parts are lubricated and rubber parts have not deteriorated.
The the two-hosers have so few moving parts...
My DA has the original diaphragm and parts except for duckbill, hoses and mouthpiece cage valves. Duckbill and hoses I bought from Mar-Vel years ago, before Dan was in business and while they still sold double hose parts, cage valves I finally got hooked up with Dan on. After talking with Rudy Miola (I think that was the name) who worked on Nemrods but had no valves, found Dan when he was just starting (before the board went up). Dan suggested how to "make" the valves since none were available at the time.
Nine years, or so since I resurrected it, and the DA still works fine. Could probably stand a real tune up, but since it works, breathes acceptably, I agree with Chuck. Ain't broke, ain't gettin' fixed.
Ralph
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Post by luis on Sept 25, 2007 9:02:47 GMT -8
Why would I not want to tincker with my double hose? That is over half of the fun of owning some of it. I only service my regulators when they need it, but making some modifications and influencing their performance or their convenience of use is all part of the fun of owning some of them. I always have plenty of regulators to go diving and I do get to go diving most every week. Lately it just seems that I don’t have enough time for tinkering. I have a backlog of things that I want to try. If all I wanted to do was just go diving, heck, even a plastic single hose can do that.
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Post by Broxton Carol on Sept 25, 2007 9:05:08 GMT -8
Hi Ralph: Modern regs need more service because they need more service. Just innuendo that to be a safe diver you need to do this and that, and to a newcomer to diving. thats all the dive shop needs to get more business. Not that business is a bad thing, but I think all this yearly check up stuff is bull. If the new gear is so unreliable it needs yearly service check ups, go back to the drawing board. the broXton drawing board. Heres a quick story...............My wife bought a new saturn 3 years ago. You should have seen all the maintainence it was suggested to have........ of course at unnecessary intervals such as, wheel rotation, new lug bolts, alignments, electrical system check ups, this that this that. Geeeesh! Even a worthless ENGINE FLUSH for 100.00! My wife got taken in on that sucker bait, and after I told her it was a rip off, she dumped the dealer. She sold the heap and bought a miata. The saturns electric steering thing broke, and it cost the next owner over a thousand to fix it!! I am still driving my 1963 chevy that I bought when I lived in florida 25 years ago. Just simple owner care, and its still rolling! Those old 2 hosers were built for simplicity, reliability, durability, and just long service. Also an item the diver could repair or adjust it, him or herself out on a dive trip if something ever (rarely) went wrong. The less modern or complex it is, the less headaches you will likely have!
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jviss
Pro Diver
Posts: 209
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Post by jviss on Sept 25, 2007 10:27:08 GMT -8
I generally agree on the maintenance issue if it is well cared for. The issue with regulators is that they are so easily and quickly damaged and made dangerous by users. Just a few drops of salt water in the HP input, or into the second stage valve (by either not being careful when removing from tank, or depressing purge button while not pressurized and still wet with salt) and the very next time you dive - in a week or two - you can have a regulator malfunction. This salt and corrosion can also permanently damage the regulator. So an annual is not a bad idea for a casual, non-mechanically inclined person.
Problem is, the typical dive shop service is so bad! I've only ever taken regs in three times, first a double hose back in the late 70's - new hoses, "soft parts," tune up - $35 total, great job. Next, 1990, 2 Dacor Pacer set ups. Both free flowed profusely next use, far from home. Next 2004, same 2 Dacor rigs, afterwards, one free flows, the other I discover a totally rotten HP spool, that crumbled when I took the gauge off the hose. Got Vance Harlow's book and never looked back. Selected my next reg set for ruggedness, simplicity and parts availability - Conshelf XIV.
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Post by duckbill on Sept 25, 2007 10:27:31 GMT -8
Why would I not want to ticker with my double hose? That is over half of the fun of owning some of it.....................If all I wanted to do was just go diving, heck, even a plastic single hose can do that. I don't get it, Luis. Now you have me all confused If tinkering with a double hose regulator is half the fun, then what is the other half if it isn't diving one!?
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ralphl
Regular Diver
Posts: 35
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Post by ralphl on Sept 25, 2007 11:04:30 GMT -8
Luis, I agree tinkering with gear is fun...I subscribe to the school of never dive a piece of gear until it has been altered. Of course, when functioning as an instructor that is a taboo subject area. Part of my remarks were serious, part questioning the "modern" approach. Some casual divers need to be led by the hand at all times. If there is a way to wreck equipment, they will do so. For them annual service might be a good thing to at least keep the gear in working order for the FIRST dive after service. But the point Chuck brought up about not messing around with the bullet proof older gear is what I also agree with. The old double hose regs are pretty tough pieces of equipment...look at how many we are still using. They don't seem to be getting regular check ups and just keep on ticking. They are simple and reliable. The other side of the issue, look at the dedication of the group having this discussion...how many of us are over 40, 50, 60 and have been diving most of those years? Take care of our gear and dive it regularly. Annual donations to the dive shop owners' retirement villas are not necessary. Heck, Chuck even goes on and on about filling his own tanks Bet the shop owners really love that one. The old gear is just great to dive...rinse it regularly, tune if necessary, add a Phoenix if you want, but just keep diving it and enjoy.
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Post by luis on Sept 25, 2007 11:39:09 GMT -8
Why would I not want to ticker with my double hose? That is over half of the fun of owning some of it.....................If all I wanted to do was just go diving, heck, even a plastic single hose can do that. I don't get it, Luis. Now you have me all confused If tinkering with a double hose regulator is half the fun, then what is the other half if it isn't diving one!? Of course the other half is diving it. Maybe it was my Spanish accent.
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Post by Broxton Carol on Sept 25, 2007 12:27:54 GMT -8
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Post by scubadiverbob on Sept 25, 2007 15:07:59 GMT -8
Luis, I agree tinkering with gear is fun...I subscribe to the school of never dive a piece of gear until it has been altered. Of course, when functioning as an instructor that is a taboo subject area. I'm not an instructor; but, when I was on a dive boat, one diver was worried about air leaking from his gauges (a dive store probably would have told him he would need a $700 computer to replace his gauges); so, I gave him two little bitty o-rings and told him to take the hose off his gauge and put them on the little brass tube inside the hose assy going to the gauge. Saved his dive vacation! Any instructor should tell their students how to open up their regs and clean the sand out of it! When I was working on regs at Chico Dive Center for Dea some guy brought in a reg with a rock in the exhaust port and said he was "breathing water". I removed the rock and was told to charge $35 for labor. I really had to question that one! I've always wondered who taught that guy diving. Guess the "taboo subject area" is to make money for the dive stores!
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Post by Broxton Carol on Sept 26, 2007 13:28:15 GMT -8
I wouldnt take it if you gave it to me. I have A FINE DUCKBILL THATS WORKING As good as the day it was made. Its not rotten. Its quality original equiptment! Why would I bastardize a fine original regulator with any modern rigged up geegaws? Looks like you have a case of uncurable tinkeritis. Enjoy!
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Post by Broxton Carol on Sept 28, 2007 4:03:38 GMT -8
I have overhauled a few of the old broxtons, for myself and others, and remarkably some of them have duckbills that are in almost like new shape! Not only in appearance, but performance. I never cut one loose if it is in good shape. The later ones that roll over the horn stick together, and some suffer "meltdown" where the rubber just degenerates into sticky crap. I wonder what the recipie was for these early bills. The ones that TIED onto the inside of the detatchable exhaust horn? Its stiffer than the later types. Some have been marked us divers, and I have noticed the word "Italy" on some. Dan makes a great replacement short duckbill as original for the broxtons! I put one in several I rebuilt, and they work perfectly. You can also take one of the thin late type duckbills, and trim it off and tie into position with a sailors half hitch, and wipe over the string with neoprene cement. This works too. Take care BC
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wd8cdh
Regular Diver
Posts: 35
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Post by wd8cdh on Dec 5, 2007 9:25:23 GMT -8
While I do like a BALANCED single stage doublehose (I dive with 2 handmade prototypes) you would need a two stage regulator to get LP ports.
My vote would be for a DIN adaptable regulator that preferably uses Conshelf balanced first stage parts and uses common second stage valve parts except for a longer lever. It should use a silicone diaphram that is compatable with the older Aquamaster regulators.
If it could fit the old boxes, that would be great but I think the production model should use a silicone mushroom exhaust valve and have a top box shape closer to a vintage Mistral for lower profile.
Different length tank valve fitting extensions should be available to allow for getting the regulator as close to the back as possable with different size tanks.
Use of a current single hose first stage body like the new Mistral did would be acceptable to me if the second stage didn't look like it was just an after thought. And the connection should be hard tubing, not hose.
One of the LP ports should be in the position of the HOOKA fitting if that doesn't increase the length of the regulator.
Part reuse should keep the price within $150 of the top of the line regulator.
Ron
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robohips77
Senior Diver
First Dives 1967. Never lost the fever.
Posts: 68
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Post by robohips77 on Dec 5, 2007 18:35:39 GMT -8
Interesting about Scubapro, since leaving the retail portion of the industry 7 years ago I have not kept up with the marketing aspect. One thing I told the reps before I left that side of selling is that someday history will repeat itself with the G 250. Why reinvent the wheel. Good to see they are going back to it. I still like my two hosers. Hmmm which one to dive next? Hey Luis, why don't you just do some drawings and measurements and get a "look a-like" mentor drawn up, patent pending that beast and get it right off to the machinists for fabrication. why you should be able to get that done in a day or two ? Right?
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Post by luis on Dec 6, 2007 3:53:20 GMT -8
Interesting about Scubapro, since leaving the retail portion of the industry 7 years ago I have not kept up with the marketing aspect. One thing I told the reps before I left that side of selling is that someday history will repeat itself with the G 250. Why reinvent the wheel. Good to see they are going back to it. I still like my two hosers. Hmmm which one to dive next? Hey Luis, why don't you just do some drawings and measurements and get a "look a-like" mentor drawn up, patent pending that beast and get it right off to the machinists for fabrication. why you should be able to get that done in a day or two ? Right? You mean this is not close enough? Actually the overall dimensions are very similar, we share many of the same moving parts, but the Phoenix actually has more LP and HP ports. The Phoenix also cost a lot less (including a donor regulator and rebuild) and it is available at this moment. This and other pictures are at Ryan web site: www.flashbackscuba.com/museum/Aqualung%20Mentor/Aqualung%20Mentor.htmlNow about Scubapro…they need to bring back the Balanced adjustable metal second stage and the D400.
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Dale
Pro Diver
Posts: 141
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Post by Dale on Dec 6, 2007 4:05:05 GMT -8
Scubapro made an attempt at returning the D400 when they came out with the X650. Its actually a very good breathing second stage. Unfortunately they had a recall on it, which they took care of very well, but sales suffered and now its discontinued. Its all about $, I really believe if the industry thought there was a big market for a new double hose, all the manufacturers would be making them.
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