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Post by SeaRat on Sept 9, 2019 17:46:55 GMT -8
On Saturday, while some of our Vintage Diver friends were diving in Monteray, I dove in the Clackamas River with my Scubapro Pilot. It performed flawlessly! I was diving the second dive on my twin AL 40s, and decided to use the Pilot.
I wanted my most modern regulator, and dove in a shallow dive below my normal High Rocks site as the lifeguards are no longer there. So it was a rather placid area of the river, with a mild current. I used my Sea Turtle/Dolphin underwater swimming technique, and was testing a second generation forward unit with this dive. I had my dive computer attached to the forward unit, so it was always in sight below my regulator. That really worked well. At one point, due to limited visibility, I got turned around in the current, surfaced and used my compass to get my directions. From there on, I had no problems.
I had a time limit, as I was meeting a friend for pizza at 11:00 AM, so it was a short, early morning dive.
I swam against the current with my J-reserve up on the twins, and turned around at about 500 psig. I then breathed it down to zero, and still had no resistance to breathing with the Pilot. When I finally got resistance, there was only two more breaths available, and I pulled the J-reserve rod. The tanks then equalized out to about 258 psig, so I now know that the spring is just over 500 psig for this J-reserve manifold (Aqualung solid manifold). I was using my scoop fins with this combo, so the dive proved out my concepts for underwater swimming. It is as close to flying as a person can get, in my opinion.
John
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Post by SeaRat on May 15, 2020 15:49:09 GMT -8
We may have a breakthrough on getting the manual here for the Scubapro Pilot. One of the guys on the Diving History Facebook page has the manual, and said he will be posting it. Once we have it, we can post it again here in Tony's posts.
John
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Post by SeaRat on May 16, 2020 21:35:13 GMT -8
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Post by knifemaker on Jul 12, 2020 15:22:53 GMT -8
Tony, thank you for the story, and the regulator. I was an instructor in 1978-1980, bought a Pilot as soon as I could afford it, and was one of the few factory trained technicians for the Pilot on the West coast. I still have mine, Serial number 9800063, though I haven't gone Scuba in years, other activities got in the way. I remember a bunch of us working on getting the ultimate tuning on it, and achieving less than 1/2" effort. Others took advantage of the either side coupling to the first stage and created a different two hose setup, one with two tanks, two first stages, with the silicone anti-freeze caps on the first stages, for protection from first stage freeze up on really cold, deep dives.
Great to find out the real story, and again thanks for a great piece of engineering!
Mike Hertzberg
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Post by gkuzkin on Aug 8, 2020 15:16:28 GMT -8
Hi gang. I'm new to posting here, but a long time Pilot fan. I've learned my way around the unit, and have whole Pilots and some parts (all original "flathead", not the AIR1 retrofit. I'm looking to add to my supply of O rings. The 70 durometer units are easy to buy, but the 50 durometer ones like the 002, 010, and 011 seem to be special order. I can see that others have been through this and it seems to involve special orders and minimums. Could I buy some rings from anybody who has a bunch? I'm thinking that, if you ended up with more than you'll ever use, I could help share the cost. I'd be happy to pay via PayPal. Please let me know and thanks in advance.
Second question: I've had hit or miss success with the chatter issue described by others. Basically, I can induce the chatter by a short, impulsive, inhalation - sort of a pulse test. Sometimes I get it a lot, following rebuild, sometimes not. I know it goes away at depth, but I'm wondering if there's more I ought to know / adjust. I'm taking Tony's word as Gospel, so I'm supposing that I've done something that create this.
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Post by SeaRat on Aug 8, 2020 17:16:06 GMT -8
Hi gang. I'm new to posting here, but a long time Pilot fan. I've learned my way around the unit, and have whole Pilots and some parts (all original "flathead", not the AIR1 retrofit. I'm looking to add to my supply of O rings. The 70 durometer units are easy to buy, but the 50 durometer ones like the 002, 010, and 011 seem to be special order. I can see that others have been through this and it seems to involve special orders and minimums. Could I buy some rings from anybody who has a bunch? I'm thinking that, if you ended up with more than you'll ever use, I could help share the cost. I'd be happy to pay via PayPal. Please let me know and thanks in advance. Second question: I've had hit or miss success with the chatter issue described by others. Basically, I can induce the chatter by a short, impulsive, inhalation - sort of a pulse test. Sometimes I get it a lot, following rebuild, sometimes not. I know it goes away at depth, but I'm wondering if there's more I ought to know / adjust. I'm taking Tony's word as Gospel, so I'm supposing that I've done something that create this. I answered your message, but I can talk about it here too. The "chatter" you discuss is a feedback from the Venturi, and I found that dialing back the Venturi opening helped it a lot. It did not eliminate it, but it only happens on mine with the initial breath out-of-water. In water, it doesn't chatter now. Tony, in the above manual that he wrote, talked about moving the Venturi slot back toward the case so that if you press the purge button, it will just stop by itself. I did that, and the chattering in the water stopped. 'Hope this helps. I had one great dive with my Pilot this summer (my only time underwater so far this year), and I really enjoyed that regulator. When I surfaced to talk, I found that it was easy to put the button into the Pre-Dive position so that there was no free flow out of my mouth too. I actually had to check once, as I had done so automatically and hadn't even remembered doing it. But then again, I'm a guy who owned an AIR I since I bought it now; now it's my octopus, with it in the Pre-Dive position. It's a wonderful conbination, having the Pilot as my primary, and the AIR I as my octopus. John |
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Post by nikeajax on Aug 8, 2020 17:24:33 GMT -8
It's my understanding that this is something inherent to this type of tilt-valve because the first Teknas would do this too: once you get them into the water a few feet down it stops doing it.
JB
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Post by SeaRat on Aug 8, 2020 17:31:57 GMT -8
It's my understanding that this is something inherent to this type of tilt-valve because the first Teknas would do this too: once you get them into the water a few feet down it stops doing it. JB JB, The Pilot is not the normal tilt valve, but rather a very sensitive pilot valve. The feedback from the Venturi in the Pilot can be handled. When Tony Christianson originally designed the Pilot, the prototype had a diver adjustable Venturi by turning the top. That would produce wonderful breathing at extreme depths, but it was also possible to aim the Venturi directly at the diver, and potentially produce lung over-expansion. So Tony's instructions are to back off the Venturi until pushing the purge button while in the "Dive" position actually results in a flow that stops by itself. When in this position, it will still chatter upon the first breath out-of-water, but is smooth underwater. Tony and I actually discussed this in a PM. Tony's in Yosemity Park, and has sketchy internet connections, so he is sometimes unavailable. Here's how he explained the Pilot's mechanism to me:   John |
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Post by gkuzkin on Aug 9, 2020 13:27:45 GMT -8
I've been diving my Pilot for about four years now, and have rebuilt it twice. It's my go-to regulator and it's been on a good hundred dives. That said, I haven't found a way around the chatter. Perhaps, as said above, it's just inherent in the design. I agree, for me it's been an out of water / shallow water issue. I was just hoping somebody had found a way to avoid it completely. As you've noted, the aspirator is critical or things can be much worse! I've found that the eight o'clock positions (as viewed from the top of the reg, mouthpiece towards you) is about as much Venturi as one should use.
So with the aspirator adjusted, as noted above, I can still get chatter at the surface. It makes me wonder if the the system is slightly unstable (at the surface) and requires the mass of the water to damp things a bit. It's just wild speculation, though. Tony, probably, could explain it.
I really appreciate the replies. It's great to know that there are folks who are willing to help!
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Post by nikeajax on Aug 9, 2020 14:13:23 GMT -8
... So with the aspirator adjusted, as noted above, I can still get chatter at the surface. It makes me wonder if the the system is slightly unstable (at the surface) and requires the mass of the water to damp things a bit. It's just wild speculation, though. Tony, probably, could explain it... This wouldn't surprise me. In avionics they have fly-by-wire aircraft that are very intentionally unstable: the plane's microprocessors constantly make thousands of adjustments to keep it in stable flight. Because of this instability, the aircraft is highly maneuverable. I see this as being akin to needing the water to balance out the regulator's squirrely performance. JB |
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Post by cnotthoff on Aug 9, 2020 15:23:27 GMT -8
... So with the aspirator adjusted, as noted above, I can still get chatter at the surface. It makes me wonder if the the system is slightly unstable (at the surface) and requires the mass of the water to damp things a bit. It's just wild speculation, though. Tony, probably, could explain it... High flow 2nd stages (particularly servos) will chatter if the mouthpiece is too small or the diver bites down too hard on the mouthpiece. This was a problem with the Tekna 2100. The mouthpiece that Tekna supplied had hollow bite tabs, so the diver had to bite down to retain the 2nd stage. The slight back-pressure created by that small opening would cause the servo to shut off creating that chatter. Try a different mouthpiece or opening your mouth wider while inhaling. It can be problematic If that causes the 2nd stage to fall out or your mouth. Good Dives, Charlie |
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Post by morris75 on Aug 10, 2020 17:19:41 GMT -8
Hi gang. I'm new to posting here, but a long time Pilot fan. I've learned my way around the unit, and have whole Pilots and some parts (all original "flathead", not the AIR1 retrofit. I'm looking to add to my supply of O rings. The 70 durometer units are easy to buy, but the 50 durometer ones like the 002, 010, and 011 seem to be special order. I can see that others have been through this and it seems to involve special orders and minimums. Could I buy some rings from anybody who has a bunch? I'm thinking that, if you ended up with more than you'll ever use, I could help share the cost. I'd be happy to pay via PayPal. Please let me know and thanks in advance. McMaster Carr has 50 duro 002, 010, and 011. I have more of these than I need, and happy to share at cost. If interested, you can message me with how many of each you need and we can go from there. I have a few original pilots that need rebuilding when I find time. Still have not had the pleasure of diving one, but the day will come. Also a own a couple AIR1 converted pilots, these are a relative breeze to rebuild. Took a freshly rebuilt converted version out for a couple test dives today, working perfect. No difference in breathing performance vs AIR1 on the bench or underwater, but I noticed the converted pilot did breath drier vs AIR1 in certain positions. |
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Post by morris75 on Aug 10, 2020 17:22:10 GMT -8
I mangled the reply with quote feature above (oops), but you can see my reply beginning with mention of the McMaster Carr orings.
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Post by SeaRat on Aug 10, 2020 19:45:30 GMT -8
I mangled the reply with quote feature above (oops), but you can see my reply beginning with mention of the McMaster Carr orings. I think I fixed it. I also have both the Pilot and two AIR Is, and also noticed that the Pilot breathed drier than either of the AIR I second stages. John |
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Post by gkuzkin on Aug 12, 2020 12:47:29 GMT -8
Morris75, thanks for the offer and I will PM you with more info.
As to material, I can see that some specifics are marked on the schematic. Two are shown as urethane, one (the one on the poppet bottom) is silicone. Another person I'm corresponding with suggested that the low pressure needs and better sealing of 50D are helpful in avoiding the slight leak the instructions allow. This makes sense to me and I'm going to give it a try once I can. Hopefully Tony will surface at some point and can give us some engineering insight on what he chose. Another consideration might be, what would he would choose today. I don't think fluorocarbon and such were readily available when he did the original design.
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