La Spirotechnique Narghile or Narguile Hookah Regulators

[vance]

I got 3 Narghile hookah regulators a while back. I bought them from a seller in Turkey, who wanted way more than I paid, but even so, I got screwed big time. It wasn't his fault entirely, although he misrepresented them.  I got curious, which often leads to my downfall.

The condition of these range from horrible, to slightly less horrible, then to not so horrible, but they all suck in ways.

Mostly, they are badly corroded, nearly impossible to take apart without damage, and are basically useless to me or anyone else.

The box ring screws and almost every other threaded part would not budge.  After leaving them in a garbage bag for a year, I finally decided I wasn't going to be defeated. 

I got out the torch.

That got things loose, but with a price. Rubber seals melted, etc. Funny part is, after all these years, the diaphragms and CG-45 style duckbills are still good. Everything got soaked in vinegar and cleaned as much as possible.

The interesting and horrifying part is the amount of burned oil/carbon residue inside the HP valves and venturis on two of them. These regs had repairs to the hoses and mouthpieces that were basically string and tape.  I can only guess that the owners were very poor and couldn't buy new parts. The carbon inside the regs probably means their failing air compressor was pumping burned oil into their regulators.

I can imagine what happened to these divers. It isn't good.

Photos to follow.

   

[SeaRat]

Wow, that is actually interesting to a lot of us. These regulators certainly have historical significance, even if they cannot be restored to diving condition.

John

[vance]

I will follow up with photos of the rebuilds. They are pretty much Mistrals, but with a different valve. I'm not sure if they are second stage regs or single stage.

The big question is what kind of (second stage? HP?) seat was used. None of the 3 had any discernable rubber or seat material between the poppet and the seat, but there was goo in a couple.

The schematic suggests that a puck was inserted into a carrier in the multi-part poppet. Part # 118114?



EDIT: Better drawing for clarity.

[vance]

Here is the poppet, diassembled. Note the threads on the big end of the stem where the seat holder screws on:





And a shot of the end where a soft seat should be. I'm guessing it would be a nylon disk:



And here are a couple of the valve bodies. I quickly swabbed the inside of the body the Q-Tip is perched on. The black muck is thick inside.

[vance]

There's a plug screwed into the end of the valve body, where the threads are. That was to plug the end that had to be opened for machine tools. The plugs are corroded in place so badly that the screwdriver slots are all broken. They were like that when I got them, for the most part. Someone tried to get them out, but failed. I didn't help matters with my attempts, either.

Normally, they wouldn't need to come out. In this case, however, the inside of the valve body needs the black muck cleaned out. I don't think I'd leave them in in any case, since that'd be sloppy.

I'll have to drill into them and bang in some sort of ez-out. Then, the torch. This will also mean making new plugs.

[vance]

Here's what it is supposed to look like:





And with what looks an awful lot like a first stage.

[nikeajax]

Very funky and groovy buuuuddy! You probably wouldn't enjoy these half as much if they weren't a PIA: yeah, I know, it's that freakin' price tag that's so angry makin'...

JB

[vance]

I was so mad when I opened the box stinking of rotted canvas straps, corrosion, and oily funk, I almost tossed the whole lot in the garbage. Then, I started to think about the nice box rings and Mistral parts inside, if I could get them apart.

I did at least get 3 decent box rings, but the valve parts are not Mistrals, but specific to the Narguile type regulator (final e with an accent), which appears to mean hookah in French.

They had an aluminum badge, which dissolved quickly with exposure to seawater, and mine have only 3 brass rivets left to show for them. These are unusual, if not rare. Some of the earlier ones are quite rare and are sought by collectors.

I should be able to get them working, if I can solve the seat mystery. The photo above, showing a remote first stage, is pretty much proof these are second stage regulators, not single stage. 

Great. Just what I need!

[nikeajax]

Jan 21, 2022 14:51:28 GMT -8 vance said:

...but specific to the Narguile type regulator (final e with an accent), which appears to mean hookah in French...

Great. Just what I need!

"Fragilé, must be Italian..."



JB

[SeaRat]

Do you have a patent number on the regulator? If so, you may be able to look up the patent and get a description of the sealing surface.

John

[vance]

No, the label is gone on all 3. They were aluminum, and dissolved!

[SeaRat]

Does this by any chance look like this valve:

patents.google.com/patent/US2951676A/en?assignee=Emile+Gagnan&oq=Emile+Gagnan

The valve body 1 is for instance constituted by a prismatc block bored so as to provide a recess 3 which communicates with an inlet tubular appendix 4 `and a delivery tube 5. The body 1 is secured on the inner surface of the bottom 6 of the regulator casing, by means of a nut 7' or an equivalent member threaded on a thread of the appendix 4 inserted through a hole in the bottom 6. Said appendix is connected to a high pressure gas source, generally an air pressure cylinder.

The valve which, in the example contemplated, is a conical point 7, has its seat provided by the edge of the inner orice of the delivery tube it comprises a head 8, the cross-section of which is polygonal, and which is guided in the bore 3 and extended by an axial rod 9 which protrudes from the body 1 into the recess 2 of the pressure regulator. For ensuring the tightness of the recess 3 relatively to the recess 2 without creating passive ICC i lgasket 10 of the type known as O ring, for instance. Such `a gasket is normally, and independently of the pressure prevailing inside the recess 3, held in a compressed state for being applied against the peripheral surface of the rod 9 and the other adjacent surfaces, by a helical spring 11 interposed between the guiding head 8 and a washer 12, the gasket bearing against a ring 13 threaded in the body 1 and which constitutes one ofthe bottoms of the recess 3. It is not necessary to fit accurately the rod 9 in the ring 13; on the contrary it is advantageous to provide a small clearance for limiting the passive resistances to the reduced passive resistances created by the gasket.

When the valve 7 is closed the axial thrust on said valve due to the high pressure gas which lls the recess 3 is null if, according to the invention, the diameter of the rod 9 is equal to the inner diameter of the delivery tube 5. Inasmuch as the pressure inside the delivery tube 5 is equal to the pressure inside the recess 2 of the regulator, when the valve is closed, the valve is submitted only to the axial thrust of the spring 11 which acts for urging the valve towards its closed position. That thrust may be determined as desired; it may be also regulated by screwing or unscrewing the ring 13. The rod 9 is operatively connected to the regulator diaphragm 16 through a link system, such as a lever 20 having one end pivotal- 1y connected at 14. The delivery ytube 5 may either open in the recess 2 provided with an outlet tubular opening 21 that being generally the case in the breathing apparatus of the kind set forth, or be connected to a pipe which opens near the entrance of the divers respiratory tracts.

As soon as the valve 7 begins to open by moving apart from its seat, high pressure air flows from the inlet 4 to the outlet 5, the pressure gradually decreasing from the inlet 4 which is located up-stream relatively to the head 8, so that the air pressure on the rear surface, i.e. the left hand end surface of the head it, is greater than the air pressure applied on the opposed end surface of said head. However, this latter surface is greater than the opposed one since the cross-sectional area of the rod 9 is to be substracted from the left hand end surface. It is always possible to determine the relative values or" the cross-section of the head 8 and the rod 9, and the strength of the spring 11, so that the thrust on one of the side surfaces of said head will counterbalance Ithe thrust on the other side surface, and the valve 7 Will be balanced in all positions.

If this is the correct regulator, then it appears that it is a single stage, balanced unit which uses O-rings to seal it.



John

[vance]

It is similar, but not identical. The Narghile valve does use an o'ring in the poppet stem guide and one on the OD of the guide body, like the drawing. The description above seems to say that if the rod OD and the jet ID are equal, the air pressure inside the valve is null when closed, making it balanced? Prolly more to it than that. Maybe someone with more engineering experience could weigh in on that.

The text seems to have many typos and punctuation errors which makes it very difficult to follow.

I just came across an article that covers the history of the Spirotechnique Narghile (hookah) regulators. The original ones are converted CG-45s with the first stage parts removed, and are fed LP air from a remote first stage or hand pump.

seveke.de/tauchen/altes/0artikel/tgs09-spirotechn-narguiles-campell-2016.pdf

One or two subsequent models are also converted two stage regulators, but later ones (like mine) are purpose made second stage regulators w/o a first stage body. They are definitely not single stage regulators.

[james1979]

Jan 22, 2022 10:23:22 GMT -8 vance said:

 The description above seems to say that if the rod OD and the jet ID are equal, the air pressure inside the valve is null when closed, making it balanced? Prolly more to it than that. Maybe someone with more engineering experience could weigh in on that.

It is an upstream design, and the balance comes from how much exposed surface sees what pressure.  Where the seat is inside the jet is seeing the ambient pressure... and the back side of the poppet extends out the back of the valve to where it sees ambient pressure as well.  With those being the same diameter, the forces balance out and the poppet is only held closed by spring pressure.  
For something like the snark poppet, only the jet side of the poppet sees ambient pressure and the back side sees IP plus spring pressure... so that is held closed by spring pressure plus the IP applied to the area of the jet.  
On a DAAM/RAM, the second stage spring is opposing the IP times the area of the jet (hence it breathes easier as tank pressure drops and IP goes up).
On a modern balanced second stage, there is a balance camber that allows the poppet to see IP against the back of the poppet stem so the spring is not having to overcome IP.

Hope that cleared up some simplified theory!

Respectfully,

James

[spirou]

Hello Phil,
What you have acquired are hookah spirotechnics, where hookah is actually a second stage, there is no unlike DAAM. Professional divers have used it a lot in europe with spirotechnique hoods. They appeared in 1965, and finally had a venturi nozzle, they are quite specific. They were produced until 1977. The principe patent is the right, but don't show the nozzle.

Fred