Breathing habits

[cg43]

Hello

We are talking much about our diving gear and not so much about about ouerselvs .
Many of us are old divers or learned diving the old way and this is different from today's way .

Years ago I had a meeting with old school mates . They told me about there diving in the Malediven .
I asked them " shall we meet tomorrow on our lake , I can bring scubas , weight and gear for you ?
They both answered " No , we only go in the water if it is warm , good visuability and nice fishes .
You are a diver , we are holyday divers "!  
What I hopefully learnd fron this is that there are different demands , different humans and because
of this different ways to teach and do diving .

Let's start with Padi (they claim "The way the world learns to dive")
Blog Laura Walton 14. November 2018 .

You :  I'm learning to scuba dive .

Them : Wow ,you must be realy good at holding your breath !

You : Actually , no , first rule of scuba diving is that you keep breathing .

End blog .

What do you think about this blog ?

Greetings   Rainer

[SeaRat]

Hi Rainer,

This is a good topic. One of the things I have realized is that many people learning scuba today are not water people. When I was growing up, I had gone through swim team training for competitive swimming, then to YMCA Lifeguarding, and swimming instructor training. Because I had been in the water for years before scuba, that training in breathing technique was natural to me. But it is not natural to mast people who learn diving today. It is best illustrated using this diagram from the U.S. Navy Diving Manual:

Figure 3-5 Lung Volumes by John Ratliff, on Flickr

Most people normally breath their tidal volume, which is a very small percentage of their vital capacity. But in swimming, we learn to breath most of our vital capacity, This is because when swimming there are times in the crawl stroke, and in breast stroke too, where the mouth is underwater. Bringing that over into scuba, we would breath deeply, and exhale slowly. But people don’t normally breathe in that manner. They breathe more rapidly, but with only their normal tidal volume. To do that with a modern regulator, you must have low breaking resistance and a large exhaust. But with vintage scuba, because our manner of breathing was different, we didn’t need the low breaking resistance, as once we induced flow we would inhale a lot, Exhalation was slower, so the opening did not need to be huge.

The U.S. Navy did experiments, and found that the larger openings were needed at depth under a lot of stress, which meant higher breathing rates and flow rates. This was great for our needs too, but we didn’t change our breathing; rather, it allowed us to dive deeper or in high stress situations (for me it was under rapids in a river, but in relatively shallow water.

John

[spirou]

Today, I am asking myself sometimes, why people decide a morning, to lean diving.

Before diving, I practice since I was a kid, free diving during almost 7 years, I would   like  to stay longer under the water, so diving was the way. ( My parents were already divers and sometimes I am asking why).

When I start diving double hose regulator 5 years ago. My first impression was that regulators were coming from another age, it was completely different, so during a certain time, I try different configuration, understand that the position of the double hose regulator is critical, if you would like to have comfortable breathing.

Looking old diving films, to see that, we don't dive today, like 50 years ago.

So it was really interesting to discover how it was before. I start diving using mk5 ( from my parents) who were very good regulators, with good performance. But after I purchase apeks xtx200 and ATX (better)

But today many peoples begin, after just making few snorkeling, and even are not able to use fins.
The heroic pioneers are really attracted by water, at this time be able to breathe underwater was miraculous, now it normal, and the regulators must be perfect and give air without any resistance, and sometimes the regs to strong for beginners today, or there are water inside. Sometimes I says to myself, give them a Broxton without non return valve🙄. But it is a bit excessive.

Finally we don't breath today like before, but using old regulator , learn to breath better, and make efforts with care.

Cheer's

Fred

[cg43]

Hello John



Interesting thoughts between the breathing habits and the breathing resistances old regs. vs. new regs.
1975 I bought an old Scubapro MK 2 .The first and only modifikation was to install a bigger exhaust valve .

OK , lets come back to us divers . Simple question : Why do we need to breath ?

The answer : To get oxygen and getting rid of CO2

In a book for Anestisists I found that getting rid of the CO2 goes 2,5 times quicker or better than getting the O2 .


That means that on land and in shallow water we mainly breath to get O2 and getting rid of CO2 is a side effect .

We can make many shallow breaths or few deep breaths as long as we bring enough O2 in our lungs .


The deeper we go , the more the O2 partial pressure rises and we have more than enough , no matter how we breath !

Getting enough O2 now is an side effect .


But what's about the CO2 ?

As the waterpressure raises the percentage must go down for the same Co2 partial pressure .

Attention ! 0,2% CO2 in 40 m depth is the same as 1% on the surface .


Although the volume of CO2 is less in the depth , if you make shallow breaths around a middel volume

the CO2 raises because of the bad dilution during every breath .


We come to the rule : Deep dives need deep breaths .



Greetings Rainer

[cg43]

Hello Fred

As you , I practiced diving since I was a kid . My brother and my friend where the same water kits .
With no gear but pain in our ears we went down to 6,5 m depth . With 14 years after I read the first 15 pages 
Cousteau "the silent world" I  was a educated diver . Luckily I never lost the fun in diving without any gear or
diving without scuba .


BtW : I was very amused to read from your first scuba dive . Your poor father , You could have made a shorter dive !

[SeaRat]

Apr 9, 2024 8:32:04 GMT -8 spirou said:

Today, I am asking myself sometimes, why people decide a morning, to lean diving.

Before diving, I practice since I was a kid, free diving during almost 7 years, I would   like  to stay longer under the water, so diving was the way. ( My parents were already divers and sometimes I am asking why).

When I start diving double hose regulator 5 years ago. My first impression was that regulators were coming from another age, it was completely different, so during a certain time, I try different configuration, understand that the position of the double hose regulator is critical, if you would like to have comfortable breathing.

Looking old diving films, to see that, we don't dive today, like 50 years ago.

So it was really interesting to discover how it was before. I start diving using mk5 ( from my parents) who were very good regulators, with good performance. But after I purchase apeks xtx200 and ATX (better)

But today many peoples begin, after just making few snorkeling, and even are not able to use fins.
The heroic pioneers are really attracted by water, at this time be able to breathe underwater was miraculous, now it normal, and the regulators must be perfect and give air without any resistance, and sometimes the regs to strong for beginners today, or there are water inside. Sometimes I says to myself, give them a Broxton without non return valve🙄. But it is a bit excessive.

Finally we don't breath today like before, but using old regulator , learn to breath better, and make efforts with care.

Cheer's

Fred

Fred,

A lot of us worldwide were snorkeling and spearfishing before doing a lot of scuba diving. Here's a few photos of me and my buddy spearfishing off the southern Oregon coast using paddleboards. Paddleboards were the easy way to get offshore to small islands, one of which I climbed up on to get this photo of my buddy with both our paddleboards.

NW Diving History001 by John Ratliff, on Flickr

And here was my results:

NW Diving History003 by John Ratliff, on Flickr

I was a young kid back then, and did a lot of breath-holding dives for food.

John

[spirou]

Apr 9, 2024 12:46:27 GMT -8 cg43 said:

Hello Fred

As you , I practiced diving since I was a kid . My brother and my friend where the same water kits .
With no gear but pain in our ears we went down to 6,5 m depth . With 14 years after I read the first 15 pages 
Cousteau "the silent world" I  was a educated diver . Luckily I never lost the fun in diving without any gear or
diving without scuba .


BtW : I was very amused to read from your first scuba dive . Your poor father , You could have made a shorter dive !

 YES. After so many year, when I think about that, I say to myself " my poor daddy 😔 it  should be better to came back earlier "

CHEER'S 

Fred 

[cg43]

Hello

The Padi blog "Laura Walton 14 November 2018 continued : Breath deep . When we dive we breathe slowly and deeply .

That's great , and every instructor should teach this . But is this common practice ?

As far as I know : No , it is not . Most certified diver I ask can not remember this good advice !
There are even instructors who tell there students to breath under water like on dry land . 
Usually this are many shallow tidal breaths . This will only work well if the diver stay in the 20m (66 feet) limit .
But will the human natur respect such limit , especially if it is so far away from the depths other divers go ?
Or what are the limits you can read in books like Cousteau "The silent world" ?
Two times I had to lift up a diver because of his shallow breathing . Now I'm used to watch the bubbles and
the noise of the inhale . This tell's much about the mood of your buddy (or yourself) .

What are your experiences with this topic ?
I'm interested to read about .

Greetings   Rainer

[pabloo]

Hi gents

As you mentioned, all vintage divers usually started their adventure with the underwater world in childhood, from learning how to swim, through freediving, to diving with various breathing apparatus. Free breathing underwater was something amazing, but the parameters of the regulators were significantly different from those used today: higher inhalation - exhalation resistance and lower flow rate "forced" a different way of breathing than on land.

From what I remember from the first training, during recreational diving the focus was not on potential CO2 poisoning, but on the fact that with the 8L x 150 bar cylinders used at that time, "deep breathing significantly saved air because the lower concentration of CO2 in the blood delays the urge to take another breath." "... so "deep breathing" solved both issues at once.

Technically, shallow inhalation brings back the residual air that remained in the throat and trachea after the last exhalation. It has a low concentration of oxygen and a high concentration of carbon dioxide, which makes it quicker to take another breath. On land this is not a problem, but under water the increased pressure disturbs the "gas exchange mechanism" which increase ventilation so it occurs much slower than on the surface. Gas exchange is therefore insufficient, the concentration of CO2 in the blood increases even with little effort from the diver, and after some time it becomes very dangerous, as Rainer mentioned.

Deep breaths dilute this "dead" air and deliver more oxygen to the lungs. When the breath stays in the lungs longer, there is more time for gas molecules to pass between the alveoli in the lungs and the bloodstream, increasing the absorption of oxygen and the excretion of carbon dioxide.

I found somewhere a description of one of the diver instructors: exhale - inhale... pause... exhale - inhale... pause

"First, fully exhale, which eliminates as much carbon dioxide as possible, thus delaying the urge to take another breath. Now fully inhale and hold after inhaling... this gives even more time for gas exchange, you just need to use your diaphragm to hold the air in the lungs for a few extra seconds while keeping your throat open"

In fact, it is similar to the swim breathing that John wrote about: a deep inhale and a long, calm exhale that has the same effect as a pause - it keeps the air in the lungs, allowing for the effective exchange of gases.

What do you think 

Best
Pawel

[cg43]

Hello , Hello Pawel

Very good describtion of the advantages from deep breathing . I enjoyed a lot .

As far as I know , the gas excange between bloodsstream and alveoli goes quick and with only 
littel concentration differences .
If this is true , getting rid of CO2 is first a question of low CO2 conzentration in the alveoli .

If breathing goes exhale/inhale/pause       the CO2 goes into the full lung volume , therefore
the CO2 concentration raises slowly .
Breathing inhale/slow exhale     the lung volume becomes lower during the end of exhale ,
therefore the CO2 raises faster and the urge to breathe comes quicker .

There is another important point you touched !
How do you make the " pause " .
Open throad and breathing muskels , or closed throad ?
Can you dive the " pause " relaxed and with fun ?
As freediver I enjoy the  "pause " between the breath's  . It is my first natur not to breath under water .
I'm not shure , but I thnk I close my throad and relax my breathing muskels .
OK , some may say freediving needs a lot of practice . That's right , but it is also a great fun .
You can even practice during scuba diving .
First exercise : Inhale / Put out your mouthpiece (or 2,Stage) and hold
it in your hand " pause " / Put it in again and inhale .................................
Second exercise : Finish your scubadive with one or two breatholds before leaving the water .

Greetings   Rainer

[vance]

Breathing is something most people never think about. Divers think about it a lot!

This kind of breathing: a deep inhale, short hold, then a slow exhale has the beneficial side-affect of being very calming.

I have a tendency toward claustrophobia, especially in a hooded wetsuit at the beginning of a dive in murky water. There isn't any visual distraction while working your way down to the bottom, so.....

I have relied on the benefits of these calming breaths. I think it is psychologically calming because of the physiological effects you describe.

Also, learning to habitualize this way of breathing while diving also relieves the anxiety of too much concentration on the act of breathing.

[pabloo]

Hello gents

From all this it can be concluded that conscious and proper breathing is the key to proper and safe diving, which is unfortunately often forgotten during recreational training.

The result is a "fresh diving enthusiast" enchanted by the underwater world, unfortunately without having yet developed the habit of proper breathing. He takes further courses to dive deeper and longer, equipped with the latest equipment that makes diving "completely safe"... almost. Because deeper + longer + poor breathing = danger to yourself and others.

Two years ago, I had the opportunity to observe how a "fresh diver" behaved in a new, stressful environment. It seems to me that nowadays, less attention is paid to self-observation during training - self-control, focusing attention on the electronic displays... which unfortunately still does not show on the display "you are under stress, the CO2 level is rising dangerously, breathe deeply... inhale... "

I once asked an old diver - instructor what to do to be a "good diver", he replied: "THINK... before diving, during diving and after diving... because there are only two types of divers: GOOD and DEAD"

I wish all of us to remain GOOD divers forever

Best
Pawel

[vance]

I am a fan of technology, up to a point. I enjoy my computer, my ipad, etc. (but not my phone, so much!).

But, we should not rely on electronics to keep us safe. There are rules that we need to follow while engaging in dangerous activities. If it can't be done with analog equipment, I'm not going.

I have never used a dive computer. Many of you have, and that's cool. However, I don't dive past 20-ish meters, and my equipment consists of a single 72 pumped to 2600 psig with a BC, an SPG, depth gauge, and a safe second.

Sure, a moon landing expedition has to rely on computers to be successful. My dive to 65 ft. doesn't.

[cg43]

Hello Vance

A book about breathing begins : Exhale everytime stress hits you .

It's good to read that this works fine for you .

Problems diving down in murky water are more or less common to nearly every diver I know .
I grow up on a river with murky water and had to be rescued more than one time by adults .
I was to young to see any danger , jumped in the water without be abel to swim and because
I was a lean boy quickly sunk down . I hold my breath by biological instinct , the world
first gets brown , than black and then light again after I was pulled up . To stupid to recognice
the danger I became a murky and muddy water diver .

Hello Pavel
Are there only good and dead divers ?
I miss the words lucky and unlucky .
More than one time I only stayed alive because I was a very lucky diver .
I think , there are more  lucky and very lucky divers .

Greetings   Rainer

[pabloo]

Hello Rainer

The sentence is simple...THINK or you'll be DEAD so you are GOOD or DEAD diver - there are no intermediate states:)

In this case, GOOD means: careful, responsible, foresighted, experienced, lucky... anything that makes us return from diving happy and healthy to our families every time makes us GOOD divers.

All the best & safe diving for all of us.

Best
Pawel