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Feb 11, 2008 22:30:19 GMT -8
Post by seakrakken on Feb 11, 2008 22:30:19 GMT -8
Maybe if they bought Luis Phoenix design and incorporated it into a re-release of the Royal AquaMaster they would be light years ahead of what they did with the new Mistral
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Feb 12, 2008 3:54:04 GMT -8
Post by swimjim on Feb 12, 2008 3:54:04 GMT -8
Bob's right. Then they would need to market the thing properly. Can you imagine a Phoenix with fluorescent hoses, or clear silicone ones? How about mood hoses that change color with the changing water temperature? Maybe they could play with the can design. Do a voit style maybe or go with colors there too. The gaudier the better. You'd have to do that to market to the current crop of padi folk. Ha. Of course if US Divers was successful they could pay Luis a big fat Royalty for developing the Phoenix and he could roll up to Sand Dog smokin' a big fat cigar!
Jim
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Feb 12, 2008 17:00:20 GMT -8
Post by SeaRat on Feb 12, 2008 17:00:20 GMT -8
William,
First, they could not re-issue the old Mistral with four ports, as it would only accomodate a HP port (being a single stage regulator). But you have some good ideas.
I think that part of the "liability issue" you alluded to is that if there is no "safe second" on the regulator, the buddy breathing techniques are different and different training would be needed. But "everybody" now teaches use of at least a safe second stage ("octopus" in the old terminology), and perhaps they would want to market it with the safe second already attached, along with a long hose. That way, air sharing would be the same as is currently taught by PADI and others. They would have to make the diver who bought it aware of the loss of air dependent upon position of the mouthpiece, are maybe provide a shutoff valve in the mouthpiece such as is currently in rebreathers.
Concerning the hoses, the larger hoses are better at getting air to the diver. The hoses' buoyancy is the problem, and that could easily be handled by weights, either in a covering (in different colors, of course), or attached directly to the hoses. The hoses should also be long enough to allow a low postion on the back, which the New Mistral did not incorporate.
From my perspective, they need to redesign the boxes of the New Mistral so that it fits on a double manifold, and so that the top box is comfortable between the shoulder blades. The old one was too extended, and hit right on a back vertebrae, making its use on doubles problematic. They need to pay attention to the ergonomics of the regulator's fit on the back, and not simply assume that everyone is diving a single tank system with a tank-mounted BC.
John
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Feb 12, 2008 17:28:30 GMT -8
Post by nemrod on Feb 12, 2008 17:28:30 GMT -8
Why with all of the retro interest in so many other things from cars to camping why the scuba industry refuses to offer retro products amazes me.
As to a double hose as we have discussed many times, who would buy it? I don't see any more of a liability problem with a RAM reissue (with LP and HP ports) than with that stupid and dorky new Mistral failure.
The larger hoses may be marginally better, unproven, but at the expense of comfort and function in other areas, I would prefer traditional diameter hoses to weights or corks or bobbers or strings or any other sort of solution looking for a problem.
Retro diving, vintage diving, will not catch on with the industry because for one thing it does not use the darling of the industry, the heavy weight money maker, the prima donna of the mass marketers, the life jacket for non swimmers, the one and only Poodle Jacket BC "device" that is ubiquitous throughout the diving community today. Retro divers (not the same as vintage) would have no use for a 900 dollars airbag much less the 100 vintage divers in the world (per Dhass).
Beats me really why AL does not offer a vintage package, Limited edition. I would not expect Voit to because they don't exist anymore nor do any of the others who were around back then. Somehow a vintage package from gag, gag, TUSA just does nothing for me, sorta like McHillary.
More blasphemy from Nem, I am questioning the holy grail, after antedotal and somewhat informal experiments--wearing the tank low does no good and in fact increases breathing effort for the diver with good horozontal trim and position! Where and why did this low tank stuff get promulgated and who says it. Yeah, yeah, I am guilty of oft repeating it.
Nem<--vintage, retro, minimalist diver and a rebel
Nem
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Feb 12, 2008 17:43:14 GMT -8
Post by caveman on Feb 12, 2008 17:43:14 GMT -8
Maby Aqua-Lung is heading in the direction that gives them the most bang for the buck. A few old farts and straglers like ourselves may not be enough to entice any manufacturer to leave the beaten path. Alas all we can do is dream. Perhaps someone will put another ruby in there reg or make a smaller micra. Maby even come up with a new shade of green. One can only hope.........................................
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Feb 12, 2008 17:49:29 GMT -8
Post by swimjim on Feb 12, 2008 17:49:29 GMT -8
I've tried the new Mistral under actual conditions and the larger hoses do not deliver air any better then any of my old DA's. My Phoenix and my Warner address Mistral OUT PERFORM it hands down. Bigger ain't always better. But that's not the point here now is it. We're talking a new design that would sell. Therefor the new design would have to perform well, but more importantly, it would have to "look" right. You can have a toaster that is square and made out of steel plate. Will it work? sure. Will it sell, not a chance. Stream line that bugger and make it out of chromed thin sheet steel, well now, you have something that will go in every American home. The new Mistral did not look right AND it was a poor performer, there for it was a flop. Remake a new reg using classic lines at least and make it work properly and you have a shot. We have to remind ourselves that from a marketing standpoint we are in the minority. Mr. and Mrs. Joe Blow are getting PADI certified and will buy things based one what their dive shop recommends and what looks "cool". That's just the way it is. I believe you could make a two hose reg based on the RAM design and with the right tweaks and promotion it would be a great seller. Without a little education from the dive shops and the right promotion though, it would also be doomed.
Jim
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Feb 12, 2008 17:57:22 GMT -8
Post by caveman on Feb 12, 2008 17:57:22 GMT -8
We seem to agree, I would love a new RAM to go with my old one that I like so well.
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Feb 12, 2008 17:58:54 GMT -8
Post by caveman on Feb 12, 2008 17:58:54 GMT -8
As long as it doesn't come in lime green and have PADI stamped on the back.
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Feb 12, 2008 18:39:34 GMT -8
Post by nemrod on Feb 12, 2008 18:39:34 GMT -8
Yeah, the only Mistral I dove may not have been tweaked and I admit I did not get a lot of time with it but it was pretty poor, especially compared to my Phoenix. There is simply no comparison between the two. The Phoenix, at least mine, compared to the new Mistral I dove briefly is way ahead all around. Better hose routing for accesory hoses and more flexibilty for routing for different needs, more LP and HP ports, more comfortable breathing hoses, more sensitive and smoother and frankly flowes more air for my estimated demand.
I would never count AL out but at the same time I am not holding my breath.
They do not own the production rights to the Mentor, that is a military contract item and like all such things, it belongs to the government that paid for it's design and production. I suppose Unlce Sam could let them--maybe--?
I would settle now for a reissue Otarie fins and round mask in blue and yellow and orange etc but off course silicone and a matching snorkel and Seahawk knife, forget the Mentor, the PRAM is better anyways and for pure vintage a good DA, Navy, RAM is awfully sweet just as they are.
Nem
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Feb 12, 2008 18:49:04 GMT -8
Post by SeaRat on Feb 12, 2008 18:49:04 GMT -8
Yeah, the only Mistral I dove may not have been tweaked and I admit I did not get a lot of time with it but it was pretty poor, especially compared to my Phoenix. There is simply no comparison between the two. The phoenix, at least mine compared to the new Mistral I dove briefly is way ahead all around. Better hose routing for accesory hoses and more flxibilty for routing for different needs, more LP and HP ports, more comfortable breathing hoses, more sensitive and smoother and frankly flowes more air for my estimated demand... Nem That is not a function of the hose diameter, or the mouthpiece design; that is a function of the venturi action, which some have said was very poor on the New Mistral. I was impressed with the design of the new hose/mouthpiece design, and larger diameter with the same type of venturi will flow more air (volume = flow rate in feet per minute times diameter in feet squared). John
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Feb 12, 2008 19:26:28 GMT -8
Post by nemrod on Feb 12, 2008 19:26:28 GMT -8
I guess what I am saying is I don't agree (but I am a rebellious sort). While a larger diameter hose will flow more air at some undetermined flow rate there is a point of limiting advantage given the modest flow rates of a human engine. I ain't no Chevy 350. I therefore believe that the limiting factor is not the hose diameter and that the increase in hose diameter has more disadvantages than advantages beyond some optimum diameter--which I think we already have.
The new "streamline" cage valves and the new silicone cage valves will have more direct effect on flow rate since that is one of the weak links, restrictions, as it is now in practical use, not the hose diameter. Those and the silicone diaphrams make a huge difference.
Observational science is a good thing but intuitive science often starts with a false assumption such as that huge hoses mean more air flow, how much air flow do you need before the hose diameter becomes a restriction given the existing restrictions of the valves and duckbill and cages? I just don't think that is the limiting factor.
Nem
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Feb 12, 2008 20:49:38 GMT -8
Post by SeaRat on Feb 12, 2008 20:49:38 GMT -8
Nem,
You are correct about that, as one of the best performing regulators was the Aqua-Lung DX, which had the small venturi hose within the larger hose. The buoyancy is definitely a problem, and you mentioned the cages and silicone valves, which are both improvements. The improved flow rates of bigger hoses would only really come into play in extremely deep dives, and I don't do much of that anymore. So we can agree on that. But, given a flow rate, the bigger hoses will flow more air.
Going back to the original Aqua-Lung regulator, there are those who feel that this one was enough for most people, and any improvements since are more perceptional than need-based. I tend to feel that there were advantages to the venturi of the DX, DW, Mistral and Aquamaste (both) regulators. But there was a lot of diving done on the early rigs too.
John
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Feb 13, 2008 8:07:35 GMT -8
Post by shackle on Feb 13, 2008 8:07:35 GMT -8
I dive a blue Voit 50 Fathom (bought it used for $15.00 bucks when I first learned to dive in 1969) a W. Pico Mistral, Voit Navy and a RAM I got for highschool graduation in 1971. I also have a "new" Mistral because I picked it up on Ebay for cheap out of curiosity. I like diving them all, but they are all different. Preference can be very subjective. I agree with James and others that the RAM is by far the most comfortable and easiest breathing, but it is a thrill to dive my old single stages when I can. It is sort of like getting in my old '71 Volvo P1800 wearing jeans and a T shirt on Saturday afternoon. That is a car that you have to muscle around, not an easy breather, but a thrill. As far as the New Mistral goes I have got it breathing fine by fooling around with the IP. The biggest issue is the bouancy of the hoses (ergo hose weights) and the mouth piece which I find irritating. I dove it quite a bit on a trip to the Keys this summer and my gums hurt for days afterwards.
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Feb 13, 2008 15:57:24 GMT -8
Post by Michel on Feb 13, 2008 15:57:24 GMT -8
The solution is easy:
I nominate Broxton Chuck for president of Aqua-Lung Corp.! If anyone can straighten those boozoos out it's Chucko.
Michel A.
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dhaas
Regular Diver
Posts: 26
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Feb 14, 2008 14:50:48 GMT -8
Post by dhaas on Feb 14, 2008 14:50:48 GMT -8
One of these days my buddy Nemrod will learn how to spell my name. It's HAAS, not that I wouldn't want to be known as being related to world famous Hans HASS.......(Google it if you don't know your diving history) Yes, as cantankerous as the bunch of the vintage amigos are I am one, too. With my own opinions based on 39 years diving, owning a dive store , working (still today) with manufacturers in medical equipment and diving. It's all about making MONEY, and also LIMITING LIABILITY folks. You couldn't make money even if there are 200 ACTIVE VINTAGE DIVERS in all of the USA who SAY they'll buy a product. Ain't gonna' happen. Everyone talks a good game but I give Luis credit for actually engineering something that works. But sell it in volume, and convince new divers to use one? Fuggetta' 'bout it! My buddy Ron (who many of the Sand Dog gang know) and I ponied up our $$$ for the NEW Mistral. I, as a photographer had high hopes for the rear bubbles, etc. It was, and is, a piece of crap and will never be resurrected. My ancient single stage Mistral breathes better. Beat up on PADI, BCs, colorful gear (many of you evidently never notice the "tech" craze where everyone tries to look like a Ninja.) Many in the vintage clan never go diving in the Big O at beautiful locations. Mainly because they'd be denied diving without some currently designated gear. Allan (simonbeans at http://www.vdh.com) took his Phoenix to Cayman with me in Dec. 2007. He dived it all week, and it was fun. But convince anyone to switch from a modern single hose regulator? Again, no friggin' way..... By the by, Aqualung owned by Air Liquide is one of the worlds' LARGEST gas handling equipment company. If not THE largest. They own 60% of the diving market. So why should they invest one cent on creating something that won't make them major bucks? All those in favor of second mortgaging your house and risking to develop and try and sell all this crappola' talked about raise your hands! I didn't think so..... IN closing, don't get me wrong. I LOVE strapping on nothing but a 71.2, no BC, no pressure gauge and swimming around sometimes. But I don't expect a resort with huge liability concerns, or PADI (90% of new divers) to let me "do it my way". Any more than car manufacturers will produce a car without seat belts, or air bags..... I just love stirring the pot dhaas P.S. - Any mid-westerners, I'll be meeting PearlDiver at Chicago's Our World Underwater this weekend. Unless you've been under a rock for 30 years it's one of the biggest scuba enthusiast's shows......Leaving at the crack of dawn to drive 6 hours there
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