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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2006 11:21:08 GMT -8
Terry
I spent some time stationed in southern calif back in 71. I learned in a lake here in Texas and the way we entered the lake is the way I entered the water in Calif, Okinawa and else where....I walk out with fins in hand until the water reaches my shoulders. Then, mask down, reg in mouth and sit on the bottom and put my fins on and proceed from there......in Calif the surf still knocks one around but not like it does with fins on and walking backward......do they still do that?I-AM-SPAM???
Gettin out is the same way......take em off and walk out....in Lakes here in Texas, if there aren't rocks to climb over, we swim up to the shallows and pull fins and walk out.......that tank puts me off balance when it gets above the water crawling.....
Who has other ways to exit that PADI doesn't teach?
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Post by duckbill on Sept 29, 2006 11:37:54 GMT -8
Terry ......in Calif the surf still knocks one around but not like it does with fins on and walking backward......do they still do that?I-AM-SPAM??? That's how I learned entry here in Northern California and still the way I do it. When the surf is up (and it usually is) I like to be ready to spin around and kick under the big ones and off I go. Can't say for So.Cal. With the long, shallow surf there it would be hard to get far enough under the waves for quite a distance. There I think the walk-in entry would shine, as long as you can keep your fins in your hand! I'll have to give it a try next time I'm down there.
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Post by SeaRat on Sept 29, 2006 22:06:27 GMT -8
In case anyone wants to know, Lloyd Bridges popularized wearing the mask on the forehead, as he did that throughout the Sea Hunt series as Mike Nelson. When I went through the U.S. Navy School for Underwater Swimmers, they were very ademont that we not wear the mask on our foreheads. If we did, we got to take "The Rope" home for the day, and keep it in our possession for the entire day (yes, sleep with it too). "The Rope" was a 6" diameter, nine foot long hunk of line used for mooring ships. And we had to take it if we did something wrong, like wearing our mask on our foreheads ("playing Mike Nelson," whom all the US Navy divers hated, or so it seemed), getting separated from our buddies, etc. I think NAUI picked it up from the U.S. Navy. Their justification was that a wave could come along and sweep it off our heads, and we would be without a mask. And yes, we used the oval mask as a U.S. Navy Issue piece of equipment throughout our training in Key West. Here's a couple of photos I took during our training in April of 1967: Photos Copyright 2006, John C. Ratliff The top photo shows Harry Krause, Pararescue trainee at the time, surfacing from our deep dive to around 120 feet (between 90 and 120 feet was qualifying, as I remember). You can see why some people did not like the nose pockets (ya, I remember what they are called now). The second photo shows Bob Means, who also was a Pararescue trainee at the time, snorkeling off Key West, Florida on our off time. We all graduated from Pararescue Transition School together. John
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Post by OystrPir8 on Sept 29, 2006 22:54:14 GMT -8
When I was 14 my mom came home from the grocery store to find me on the phone with a Navy recruiter. When I was 18 they rejected me because of a heart murmur. I dont know about Mike Nelson (still waiting to see an episode of Sea Hunt), but James Bond IS cool - and we should all remember where he keeps his mask. I'll have to go with Bond since the Navy doesn't get to tell me what to do (They had their chance.) Mask on forehead it is. Those photos are pretty dang cool though. If i could have done that stuff I'd put my mask anywhere you wanted me to! Thanks SeaRat! Duckbill - where are you located again? We've GOTTA dive Monterey! ( Monestary? Lobos? Stillwater?) ANYTIME
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Post by duckbill on Sept 29, 2006 22:54:20 GMT -8
In case anyone wants to know, Lloyd Bridges popularized wearing the mask on the forehead, as he did that throughout the Sea Hunt series as Mike Nelson..........................("playing Mike Nelson," whom all the US Navy divers hated, or so it seemed),... Uh oh! Let's see.....Mike.......Navy......Mike.....Navy....which way to go? Now I'm all confused....what to do?! I think NAUI picked it up from the U.S. Navy. Their justification was that a wave could come along and sweep it off our heads, and we would be without a mask. I was NAUI certified in 1985 and don't recall hearing so much as a whisper about 'MOF'. I just looked through my 1985 OW1 textbook and can't find any reference to weraing a mask on a forehead (or not), but I must say that there is not a single illustration in that book showing a diver with his mask on his forehead. Anyhow, thanks for that information John. What DID the Navy teach regarding mask wearing? Keep it on all the time, even at the surface? Or, when not in use, were you to push it down around your neck, in your hand, etc?
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Post by duckbill on Sept 29, 2006 23:01:41 GMT -8
Duckbill - where are you located again? We've GOTTA dive Monterey! ( Monestary? Lobos? Stillwater?) ANYTIME PM sent.
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Post by nemrod on Sept 30, 2006 1:15:38 GMT -8
Actually, since I am civilian, I really don't care if the Navy or PadI thinks the mask on the forehead is wrong, lol, who told them exactly that it was wrong? How did they decide that? In any case aside from how well the oval sits so jaunty and secure on my forehead I like how I can keep a puddle of water in the bottom and gently swoosh it around from time to time to clear the lens of fog. Also, I find that an oval clears very easy with little residual water left.
Nemrod
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Post by DavidRitchieWilson on Sept 30, 2006 3:23:34 GMT -8
From a personal point of view, there may be something in the navy advice. When my new vintage-style drysuit arrived a few weeks ago, I couldn't wait to try it out, but the North Sea on that day was a little choppy. I still went in from the shore and a wave washed away my pale blue vintage Britmarine oval mask and matching snorkel, which were up on my forehead, Mike Nelson style. A sad loss, as it's my only coloured mask and snorkel, but also a salutary lesson about the unpredictability of the ocean. I'm not going to abandon my practice of leaving the mask on my forehead when not in use, however. I can easily replace the black oval mask and snorkel I use now.
I simply don't like modern masks, because they look and feel as though they are made of transparent plastic, while I find classic oval masks comfortable, practical and easy to don and use. They're not just a vintage, but a classic, design, inasmuch as they don't need improving upon. UK dive firms sadly long ago abandoned such great tried and tested designs, while France's Sommap and Beuchat diving equipment companies have continued to manufacture them because they are apparently still in demand by the marine nationale, the French Navy.
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Post by OystrPir8 on Sept 30, 2006 8:43:16 GMT -8
Good to know! do you have any links for Sommap and Beuchat that you can purchase on line?
Sorry about the blue mask - tragic. The North Sea! I thought I was brave for diving Monterey. Sounds pretty cool... well... cold.
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Post by nemrod on Sept 30, 2006 10:02:21 GMT -8
Take the snorkel off your mask and carry it stuffed in your belt. The snorkel will result in mask loss whether you wear it PadI backwards or Sea Hunt style or dangling under your neck.
I really regret the loss of your blue mask, they are rare, that is a shame---where exactly did you loose that mask? LOL. I have a French made blue Healthways but it is a darker blue than the Voits and USD masks but still a very nice mask with chrome screw down clamp.
I use that cheapie from VSS a lot. It is not a bad mask and it is replaceable and expendable. No, it does not fit like a good old Voit or a Dacor or Healthways but it looks decent, it is oval and if your prone to loosing thngs it might be a good choice.
James
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Post by DavidRitchieWilson on Sept 30, 2006 10:25:55 GMT -8
Well, I do have links to the traditional mask section of the two manufacturers' websites: www.sommap.com/en/catalogue/masks/traditionals/index.htmlwww.beuchat.fr/catalogue/index.cfm?action=voir_produit&scat=16&idp=247&a=1As for retailers, I once special-ordered an oval Sommap mask from Mike's Diving, which is the UK dealer for the firm, website at www.mikesdiving.co.uk/and here's a UK source for the Beuchat Compensator mask: sslrelay.com/s87910425.oneandoneshop.co.uk/sess/utn;jsessionid=15451eb281efa66/shopdata/0030_Scuba+Diving/0050_Masks/product_details.shopscript?article=0190_Beuchat%2BSuper%2BCompensator%2B%3D28BEUSUPCOMMAS%3D29I don't know whether either online retailer would countenance orders from the States, but you can always try! Yes, I was devastated when I lost my blue mask, but it was a timely reminder to treat the sea with respect. The North Sea can indeed be cold, which is one of the reasons I decided to complement my retro snorkeling gear with a vintage-style Hydroglove suit, which keeps me warm and dry. Snorkelers nowadays seem to prefer hotter climes, but the pioneers of diving made do with what was available locally, so I guess I am following their lead. By the way, I snorkelled in California, at the La Jolla Cove, one August and enjoyed the experience enormously.
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Post by DavidRitchieWilson on Sept 30, 2006 10:50:52 GMT -8
Thanks for the snorkel advice, James.
>I really regret the loss of your blue mask, they are rare, that is a shame---where exactly did you loose that mask? <
In the North Sea off the shore at a small seaside town on the Northumberland coast called Seaton Sluice, 8 miles from where I live. The pale blue Britmarine mask and snorkel were bought several years ago at a local "car boot sale" for a few pounds, so monetarily I haven't lost out much, nor has it been in my possession a long time. However, it had become my gear of choice, so it's an annoyance.
Actually, I do still own a coloured mask, a dark blue Typhoon Super Star, together with its original box, a present from my parents back in the mid-1960s. I've never really used it as I went up to university a few months later and when I joined the sub aqua club there I bought another mask, a French one with finger wells and a split strap - it may indeed have been a Beuchat Compensator. The Typhoon mask has sat on a shelf for forty years now and the rubber skirt is still as soft and the metal screw on the frame just as rust-free as the day the mask was purchased. I may try it out again in the water at some stage, but that mask does have huge sentimental value so I won't take the risk lightly.
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 1, 2006 8:19:57 GMT -8
To answer your above questions, the U.S. Navy definately taught that the only place for the mask was on your face, or in your hand. Navy swimmers had to do a lot of different things, including boat pickups at high speed (UDT-Seal Teams) which I never got to try. But that is probably their reasoning. Now, what we did after the U.S. Naval School for Underwater Swimmers was another question. In the USAF, we were pretty free to decide our own techniques. But we also did parascuba jumps, and for those the mask was around our necks, positioned backwards. I know for a fact that in that position, the mask will stay on in a 200+ mph prop blast. Sometiimes, we would put the strap in our teeth before the jump too: Yesterday, I dove my usual spot at high rocks on the Clackamas River, and took along my regular mask (a Liborator-Plus) and my recently-purchased oval Scubapro mask. I did some comparisons. Here are my findings: Oval Mask--Very comfortable. --Warm in cold water. --Good view in front, but cut off a bit to the sides and down. --Easy to clear; this one has finger pockets; simply putting my fingers in the inserts was enough to clear my ears. Liberator-Plus--Also very comfortable. --A bit cooler than the oval mask, as the water was closer to my face. --About 20% better view than the oval mask, especially on the sides and down. --Because of the nose-piece, clearing my ears was very easy. This is a bit unfair, as my Liberator-Plus has one advantage--customized lens correction by Aquaic Optics. John
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Post by OystrPir8 on Oct 1, 2006 15:59:32 GMT -8
YOU are a monster! I think maybe verging on James Bond cool. At that speed, I would bite through my mask strap.
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 1, 2006 16:38:43 GMT -8
Actually, some of my friends made the jump for Thunderball out of a USAF HC-97 rescue aircraft. I never jumped that aircraft, but I heard that the wind blast was terrible, much worse than the HC-130s and HU-16B that I jumped. The reason is that the HC-97 was jumped from the rear, not the side, and the jumpers had to fall about 10 feet before hitting the airstream. In that time, their body position deteriorated, and when they hit the fast-moving air, they could be in any number of positions (their fins acted like vanes in the blast too, moving them around more in this position than from jumping the side, as we did in the HC-130 aircraft). Then, the airstream turned them every way but loose, so as their parachutes were opening, they were twisting or turning or summersaulting, and getting tangled in the lines. Hence the need to clench their mask in their teeth. Take a look sometime at the body positions of the jumpers at the end of Thunderball, and you may be surprised at what you see, especially if you slow it down. The jumpers were on a routine training jump when filmed for Thunderball, and were not paid in dollars for the jump. But they were allowed to keep the AMF Voit equipment, which included 38 cubic foot doubles, a single hose regulator, a wet suit, mask and fins. Here's a photo of a different jump, for Apollo training, from the Volume 1, Number 1 issue of Searcher, Newsletter of the Pacific Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Center, from November of 1968: This shows Paracencueman Technical Sergeant James W. Watson about to make his jump. He is wearing a parachute over twin 42 cubic foot tanks (old life raft bottles, with a USD manifold and a metal protection cage over it), a single hose regulator (USD Conshelf), reserve parachute, medical kit, and (unseen) a "butt boat" or one-man life raft under the tanks. Note the oval mask with the strap in Watson's mouth. By the way, one other thing we always used that you don't see anymore is the neck strap for the second stage. That kept the second stage near our mouths throughout the jump; we usually put the regulator in our mouths and breathed off it during the landing, even though we did not have a mask on at the time. That way, if something happened and pulled us underwater, we had our regulator on and would not have to reach for it. What could happen? Well, the 'chute could come right down on top of us in still air, or we could be pulled fast along the surface before the 'chute collapsed (if you'll look, we release one side of the risers and hold it at about 25 feet above the water, releasing it as we enter the water), or in heavy waves, the wave action could be enough that breathing was difficult. I'm trying to get the second page uploaded to Photobucket, and if that happens, will share that one too. 'Got it, so here it is: This shows the HC-130 Hercules rescue aircraft that we used in the 1970s, and is still in use today. The bottom photo is most interesting, as it shows the pararescuemen on the floatation collar, on a Navy dummy capsule which they used for training. You can see the tanks with the manifold guards, and the oval masks being used. By the way, Nemrod, you can see two of the PJs with their masks on their foreheads too. Note also that one PJ is wearing a snorkel, which the US Navy never did endorse. I think this is a flexible-tube snorkel too. I usually jumped a snorkel, but it was not on my mask, it was tucked in my knife sheath on my leg. While we trained to rescue the astronauts for Apollo, we did not get any of those missions. Every single one of them went to the US Navy, as the NASA folks really had the science of the landings down and landed the capsules within a few miles of a Navy aircraft carrier. Of all the space flights, USAF Pararescuemen only jumped on one Mercury flight (Carpenter), one Gemini flight (I cannot remember the number, but it came down near Okinawa, after having an in-flight emergency), and one unmanned Apollo, the first one (Apollo 1) which NASA purposely skipped across the atmosphere to see what the capsule's characteristics were. John PS--It was Gemini 8: pjsinnam.net/Post_Vietnam/Gemini%208.htmwww.apolloexplorer.co.uk/photo/html/GT8/10074316.htmmembers.tripod.com/thede/history.html
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