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Post by pearldiver on Oct 2, 2006 16:49:35 GMT -8
I remember that photo of the divers on the spacecraft. It was so neat to me. I never heard of wearing your mask on backwards before. I have lenses, so I need to see with the mask on at all times anyway. I was taught to keep the thing on your face and don't even take it off and if in the water, you don't take your regulator out of your mouth till on the boat. Shore diving is a bit different though. I do like the oval mask without the nose pinchers as we called them. I think the view is better through it. I never lost a mask except for on a wreck dive at 125 feet and the strap broke. The mask flooded and vanished in a matter of about 2 seconds, I didn't even have time to grab it. The water was about 38 degrees and talk about cold on the face and wanting to take a breath through my nose for crying out loud. Yike.... I closed my eyes and luckily I was just on my way up the anchor line. I knew I had lost my mask with lenses and they aren't cheap. So, a buddy on the boat said he would go find it. I'm thinking to myself. Yeah right. By golly, he came up from his dive toting my mask. I still like my oval mask. I think it is more comfy than the newer style ones.
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 2, 2006 20:46:52 GMT -8
With all these nice things being said about the oval mask, you ought to know that the U.S. Navy has figured out how to use them as a tool of harassment. But we were able to get back at the instructors in small ways too. Here is an exerpt of a book I started almost ten years ago, and is still in draft form:
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Post by duckbill on Oct 2, 2006 22:12:15 GMT -8
"Interestingly, some of the regulators had black housings, and the interior parts were made of gold rather than chrome-plated steel. The reason was so that they were anti-magnetic."
Well, there you go, Robert! I have to admit I was a little skeptical, but John has confirmed it. I thought your informant was just mistaking brass for gold. Silly I!
Neat story, John. I know you are very busy, but I hope you can finish that book. You, and everyone else, might want to check out "Navy SEALs Training: BUD/s Class 234 - 'The Only Easy Day Was Yesterday'" on the Discovery Channel this Friday. That would be at 12 noon for you (PST), John. It might bring back some memories, and confirm to others just what you said! It was originally aired on June 30, 2002. The open circuit double hose regulators are Nemrod Snark III Silvers on J-valved double cylinders with no SPGs.
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 3, 2006 4:47:26 GMT -8
Duckbill,
What the Navy told us, and what is true, may be two different things. I really don't know which parts are gold, but we were told that the steel parts and chrome plating was replaced with gold parts and gold plating.
John
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Post by luis on Oct 3, 2006 9:29:26 GMT -8
Hi John
I am not aware of any parts in a regulator (with very few exceptions) that are made of chrome plated steel. Most of the parts are chrome plated brass or bronze and a few are stainless steel (no one would normally plate stainless steel.
My impression is that the Navy regulators gold plated the brass or bronze parts that are normally chrome plated on the civilian version of the regulator. I believe the chrome plating is magnetic, but I am not sure about this. The brass or bronze is not magnetic.
Gold would have been used (probably) as a plating only. Gold alloys are in general too soft to make anything but jewelry and electrical contacts (never mind the cost). Gold plating is very effective for corrosion protection, even with extremely thin plating’s.
From the pictures that I have seen, it seems that some of the Navy regulators brass parts are not plated at all (for example the adjustment nut in a DA first stage).
Some stainless steel (304, 316, etc.) can become slightly magnetic after heavy work hardening (for example the springs may be slightly magnetic). 316 stainless steel cable used near a compass (like steering cable in a boat) is annealed after fabrication to stress relive it and eliminate its magnetism. I don’t know if this is relevant in a non-magnetic regulator.
The SS parts in a DA include the springs, the first stage pin, the second stage horse shoe, the horse shoe holder and screws (I don’t know about the box clips). Everything else is brass or bronze (I believe naval brass, C46400).
The only plain steel (not stainless steel) parts that I have seen on a regulator are something like the Tinnerman (sp?) clamps. I actually can’t think of anything else made out of plain steel (plated or not).
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 3, 2006 13:40:41 GMT -8
Hi Luis,
I'm not sure of the metals used either; my impression was that some had stainless, but that was from so many years ago that it isn't funny. I wrote that story somewhere between 1996 and 1998, and was relying upon what the Navy instructors told us at the Key West U.S. Naval School for Underwater Swimmers. So consider the source. I do know that from their description, several of those regulators did find "wings" as the students left. By the way, for anyone reading, if you see these regulators on E-Bay, most likely they did not get into private hands via legitimate routes. They most likely are "hot" items that were kiped from the U.S. Navy. That doesn't make them less valuable, but you need to know that there was no commercial outlet for anti-magnetic regulators, at least that I am aware of (others correct me if I'm wrong here).
Now, getting back to the oval mask, I took mine into the pool today, after finally getting the mask's strap secured correctly behind the rubber lock. This was no mean feat, as these locks are really tight, and Scubapro, in their wisdom, put rubber locks on both sides of the strap; the longitudinal strap locks on one side, and rubber cylinders on the other. This makes it nearly impossible to thread the strap onto the locking ring correctly. I had to depressit right down to the glass, and thread it through from the inside.
Anyway, I had a wonderful snorkeling outing to the local pool at noon. I enjoyed two things, one of which has not yet been mentioned--that my nose stayed dry. The other, Nemrod has mentioned and that is the ease of swishing a bit of water around on the lens to remove the fogging. I enjoyed watching those lap swimmers work out, make their turns, and being able to see every flaw in their stroke as they swam overhead. I also found another nose plug, the stainless wire type that competitive swimmers use; I've used these under my mask to clear my ears, Hans Hass style, without using hands. So, it was a good day at the pool with my oval mask, Shotgun snorkel, and full-foot version of my Scoop fins (PowerPlana with the inside cut out and flexible vinyl sheeting in its place).
John
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Post by scubadiverbob on Oct 3, 2006 23:56:28 GMT -8
Duckbill,
The way I found out about the gold parts in the EOD regs that were used in the Navy regulators was talking to the owner of Sub-Surface Progression in Ft. Bragg, CA. I think he was a WW2 Navy veteran who worked clearing mine fields during the war. That's one reason why I would trade my new style mistral for an original condition EOD non-mag regulator. I'm sure most of them have probably had the gold parts replaced (probably with brass) and aren't original anymore. What was really interesting was he knew a really good friend of mine, Art Helwig, who used to own Divers Exchange in Alameda, CA. Art was going to teach me Hard Hat diving, in my younger years (now a Mark 5 would probably crush me); but, the Navy transfered me before I had a chance to learn. Art used to clean the tubes in the San Francisco Bay. Interesting place to dive. If you hold your arm out in front of you the vis is so good that you hand disappeares! Last time I saw Art was in 1989 or 1990 and he still lived on his tugboat and did commercial diving around Alameda; though, the dive store had closed down years before that. I'll have to try and contact Art's son, Tim Helwig, and see if Art is still in the Bay Area sometime. Both Art and the owner of Sub-Surface have been diving before both of us were born and probably know alot about the older regulators. Interesting the stuff you can learn talking to older divers ... (for everyones info: my 11 year old son thinks I'm 28 yrs old; and I first dove in 1977 so that makes me not vintage. Again, don't forget I'm 28 according to my son ... ). Now that's interesting ... I'm 28 and have been diving for 29 years ...
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Post by crimediver on Oct 4, 2006 3:31:32 GMT -8
Searat, Interesting reading your post. I have a black Conshelf 6 non-mag military regulator that I picked up on ebay. In answer to your saying there may be no legitimate civilian market for non mags I believe there was one source. If not mistaken I think there was a civilian non-mag called the Navcon. It was a non-magnetic civilian version of the Conshelf 6 non-mag. Not really sure what they were used for or who would need such a regulator. Maybe the manufacturer made too many and they were sold to the public. i have seen a few of those for sale over the years.
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 4, 2006 5:27:36 GMT -8
Crimediver, That may be true, I don't know. I do know that I picked up the top and bottom box of an anti-magnetic DA Aquamaster from a LDS, but those were the only parts that they had. The bottom box appears new, in that there are no marks on it (indicating that it has never had the C-clips applied to it). It has a gold against black label, with the serial number of 238694, and a "3323 West Warner Avenue, Santa Anna, California" address. In answer to another question above, about how we were trained at the U.S. Naval School for Underwater Swimmers about our mask, I submit this photo of a beach exit near Key West, Florida in May of 1967. It is a bit hazy, because I took it from the beach using a Nikonos I camera with a 35mm lens, and I needed to blow it up to show you the buddy team exit. As you can see, we came out of the water still breathing off the scuba, with our masks in place. The only thing we were allowed to take off is our fins until we had cleared the water. This was the end of a 1500 yard underwater swim, where Means and I were the first on the beach and came in under the feet of the instructor, who was standing under our target for the compass course. But for the next hour we had people straggling in, and some had to be picked up and turned around as they were headed for Cuba, even with a compass (got something wrong in class ). Photo Copyright 2006, John C. Ratliff John
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Post by duckbill on Oct 4, 2006 8:21:51 GMT -8
Quick question John. It looks like they are wearing horsecollars. I assume that they are wearing the usual military tank harness. Since the horsecollar went on before the tanks (I assume), did you reach in under the horsecollar to lace the chest strap on the harness? I can't figure any other way it would be done, and I've been curious. (Unless the horsecollar you were using didn't have the crotch strap attached at the top/back of the neck) Thanks.
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Post by duckbill on Oct 4, 2006 8:34:51 GMT -8
Robert, I tend to agree with Luis. There is no reason whatsoever to make parts out of gold. Brass is non-magnetic and chromium is magnetic. So, it would make a whole lot more sense to make the usual brass parts and gold plate them, rather than chrome plate them, for corrosion resistance. Someone looking at them wouldn't know if they were gold plated or solid gold. That's probably how the rumor got started. It may still be true, but it just doesn't seem logical. It sounds like a story some instructors would make up to mess with the students' minds, and which got perpetuated through the students even until now. Until someone steps up and says for sure, or has tested and found parts in his non-mag to truly be solid gold, I still reserve the right to be skeptical. Interesting! It's hard to believe that the magnetic quality of a thin layer of chromium plating would even be a factor. After all, those mines were designed to detect ships! They must have used extremely strong magnets in their trigger system. I'll tell you what.....I'd sure feel better knowing I wasn't wearing even the slightest amount of magnetic materials while trying to defuse one! My hats are definitely off to those guys!
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 4, 2006 9:46:39 GMT -8
Quick question John. It looks like they are wearing horsecollars. I assume that they are wearing the usual military tank harness. Since the horsecollar went on before the tanks (I assume), did you reach in under the horsecollar to lace the chest strap on the harness? I can't figure any other way it would be done, and I've been curious. (Unless the horsecollar you were using didn't have the crotch strap attached at the top/back of the neck) Thanks. Duckbill, You are correct about the military harness. The chest strap was worn under the PFD. You really did not want to inflate the PFD from the CO2 cartridge with that chest strap over the top--that could be more than uncomfortable. As I recall, the PFD did not have a crotch strap, but had a strap from the back of the neck to the waist strap. I'll have to look at my photos to see if I can see that, as I have not used these since that course in 1967. In the USAF, we did not use these at all, we used what are called "Underarm Life Preservers," or LPUs for short. These were a pain as we had to take them apart, wash them with fresh water, let them dry, then put the LPUs back together (the bladder fit into a very small pouch, secured with a pin that was also connected via a line to a pull knob. Pulling the knob would open the pouch and at the same time trigger the CO2 inflation mechanism. This eliminated the need for a front-mount vest. John
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Post by nemrod on Oct 4, 2006 10:15:43 GMT -8
What I like about that photo is they appear to have UDT fins in the gum rubber.
James
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 4, 2006 10:24:46 GMT -8
Robert, I tend to agree with Luis. There is no reason whatsoever to make parts out of gold...It sounds like a story some instructors would make up to mess with the students' minds, and which got perpetuated through the students even until now. Until someone steps up and says for sure, or has tested and found parts in his non-mag to truly be solid gold, I still reserve the right to be skeptical. Interesting! It's hard to believe that the magnetic quality of a thin layer of chromium plating would even be a factor. After all, those mines were designed to detect ships! They must have used extremely strong magnets in their trigger system. I'll tell you what.....I'd sure feel better knowing I wasn't wearing even the slightest amount of magnetic materials while trying to defuse one! My hats are definitely off to those guys! Nemrod, I agree about the gold-platting rather than solid gold too. And those instructors would tell us whatever pleased them at the moment. Concerning the anti-magnetic properties, and that those bombs were made for ships, remember that they were to go off when a ship with a magnetic signature was over them, probably a number of feet away. But the UDT/Seal divers would be right up against these mines. It's kinda like my steel bicycle trying to trip a signal light--it can if it is laid down against the pavement lines, but the sensors are made for cars weighing a ton or more. It's a matter of distance away, and that depends upon the strength of the magnetic field set up. The closer to the object, the greater the strength, and the easier it would be for the field to "sense" the presence of a small object with magnetic qualities. I could get into a lengthy discussion, but at very small distances away, it would be relatively easy to detect fairly small objects by the interruption in the magnetic flux density that the object makes. John
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Post by SeaRat on Oct 4, 2006 10:25:52 GMT -8
What I like about that photo is they appear to have UDT fins in the gum rubber. James Yes, but the AMF Voit type, not the original Swimaster gum rubber fins. Here's a photo (top) that shows some of the fins that were used: Photos Copyright 2006, John C. Ratliff This photo, and the one below, shows the vest used too. I still have mixed feelings about whether there was a strap from the back of the neck to the waist strap, but from what I see here, some of them did not and used only the waist strap. But the one Means is wearing does have that strap. The underwater photo shows our compass course swimming technique, with Robert Means locking his left hand onto his right arm to form a box in front of him, and with the wrist compass set to show our objective, he can swim straight to the beach target. On one swim, I was doing the compass work, and as we got in toward shore the visibility dropped off dramatically, so badly in fact that I couldn't see my hand held out. In the shallows, my hand was going along the bottom until I hit something soft, and it stung me--not badly, but it did hurt. You can also notice the use of the oval mask by everyone in this photo. Today, I again went swimming with my Scubapro oval mask, and enjoyed the swim a lot. It is rapidly becoming my backup mask (no optical correction, so I'm keeping my Liberator-Plus as my main mask). John
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