Ron
Regular Diver
Posts: 41
|
Post by Ron on Mar 14, 2006 7:33:50 GMT -8
Liability would be a concern for the machine shop producing the fitting on a pressure point of view and Since you are just modifying/improving on a existing system, I think there should be no concern on your part.
Ron
|
|
|
Post by luis on Mar 14, 2006 9:00:45 GMT -8
Actually the machine shop is just “building to print”. They are not involved in design or engineering; as long as they meet the print they are not interested in the function or performance. In this case they happen to know what it is for, but they are not concerned, they have a copy of my drawing.
In my case the design changes, as in reference to repackaging the first stage is minimal and I have plenty of structural calculations to back the slightly modified geometry. It looks very different, but structurally (pressure and mechanical load) it isn’t.
The bottom line is that I am not concerned about loosing a liability case; I am concern about the legal expense of one. Anyone can sue for whatever reason and under first impressions this does look like a new design.
|
|
|
Post by treasureman on Mar 16, 2006 9:52:06 GMT -8
I would imagine that a document will be included with each nozle and attending parts, that the end user should they choose to install, or use this part does so at their own risk, and that no warranty is implied, esxpressed, and that liability for the use , assembly of this product rests with the end user.
A general waiver of sorts which shows intent and nothing more. simple thing to do.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2006 10:44:57 GMT -8
Luis
Have you some kind of agreement with the machine shop to manufacture a miminum number for such and such price?
If so, anyone who contacts you for one, you send them the machine shops order form with a copy of the drawings, they fill the form out, sign the drawing and send to you with check/MO etc. You hold the money in escrow until enough orders arrive to meet your agreed to minimum..........then place the order forms with the shop.........this way, to some degree.....the customers are ordering at their own risk, not yours.......
there are probably holes in this, so anyone with legal background please chime in...........
|
|
JohnA
Pro Diver
Posts: 134
|
Post by JohnA on Mar 16, 2006 10:59:54 GMT -8
Something to the effect of:
The item you have purchased is experimental and intended only for display, novelty use only. The use of this item in any other way other than for display or novelty may cause serious bodily harm and/or death. IT IS NOT INTENDED FOR THE USE IN LIFE SUPPORT EQUIPMENT AND SHOULD NOT BE RELYED UPON AS SUCH. This item is purely experimental and was never intended for use in any life support equipment. The installation of this item into any life support system may void any and all warranties, implied and express, from the manufacturer of the life support equipment and has not been endorsed by any life support equipment manufacturer.
John
|
|
|
Post by Broxton Carol on Mar 17, 2006 4:07:05 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by luis on Mar 17, 2006 17:57:52 GMT -8
Thanks for the comments. I am concerned about liability. The concern is that this part looks like a new design. The primary purpose of the new nozzle (1st stage body) is to convert an Aqua Master to a Royal Aqua Master (and therefore have serviceable parts for many years into the future). The addition of high pressure and low pressure ports are just extras, since we are machining a new part anyways. Well this makes it look like a new and original design, when in reality the mechanism has been around for almost 40years. The technical issues, fabrication and cost of fabrication issues have been taken care of. As a matter of fact, the details have fallen into place very nicely. I am very comfortable dealing with the technical issues and I am basically ready to start producing them soon. I wish I didn’t have to worry about liability (and I don’t want to make a big deal about it), but that is the society we live in. I am basically not concerned about most of the people I have met through this web site and VDH. It is probably fairly safe to say that an individual who likes to dive with vintage dive gear (equipment over 30 years old) is a self reliant individual willing to expand their knowledge in the use of the equipment and willing to take personal responsibility for their decisions. Then again, it would only take one person (or their family) to ruin my day and beyond. This is not a profit making venture and I want to keep expenses down. I really don’t want to spend a lot of money on a Limited Liability Corporation (LLC), insurance, or lawyer’s fees, but I have to do something. Bryan has offered to sell them through his LLC to limit my exposure, but I am still the designer. Buying directly from the machine shop is not really an option (they only want to deal with one person for the lot) and wouldn’t shield me any more than buying it from Bryan. One possibility (I think, I have to check on this) is for buyers to sign a liability waiver and/or a contract were the buyer of a particular serialized nozzle (first stage body) would agree to pay for legal expenses if I have to defend a suit related to that part. Do any of the potential buyers have any objection about signing a waiver or similar document? I will be talking to a friend who is a lawyer about the liability waiver (is anyone in the group a lawyer? ). I hate that I feel the need to write this long post, since I am ready to go to the next step in production, but I hope this is just a small hurdle that I need to jump. I hope to take orders right after Sand Dog III.
|
|
|
Post by nemrod on Mar 17, 2006 18:04:38 GMT -8
Just don't sell them to known trouble makers.
As an A&P with IA, I only work on aircraft under my own auspices with whom I have a long relationship and who I know. I don't work on an aircraft belonging to unknown persons, certain types of argumentative type persons such as encountered here recently, lawyers or doctors. It works for me. I tell them no thanks, if they argue, I ask them politely to take a hike. Nemrods Lawn Mower and Antique Aircraft Repair Shop is open to only people I like the looks of. Down South, if we don't like their looks, we pull out a shotgun, that usually ends the argument. Nemrod
|
|
|
Post by luis on Mar 17, 2006 18:40:25 GMT -8
Nemrods Lawn Mower and Antique Aircraft Repair Shop I hope you never get them confused.
|
|
|
Post by JES on Mar 17, 2006 19:21:43 GMT -8
Luis, Here's a paraphrased quote that touches on the subject of liability waivers: The state to state aspect of a liability waiver might make this a larger hurdle then you first thought.
|
|
|
Post by DeltaCo 1/5 on Mar 17, 2006 19:27:17 GMT -8
Luis, I would sign a waiver for the two I ordered. Thanks for all your efforts / accomplishments on this.
Mel B (Delta 1/5)
|
|
|
Post by duckbill on Mar 17, 2006 19:30:55 GMT -8
Luis, Here's a paraphrased quote that touches on the subject of liability waivers: The state to state aspect of a liability waiver might make this a larger hurdle then you first thought. I would bet that engagement in an activity involving so many unforseeable circumstances and individual human behaviors would be viewed under a far different light than what we are discussing here- buying a hunk of metal (nicely machined, of course) and putting it to an "undisclosed and unauthorized" use. But, I'm not a lawyer, so......................
|
|
|
Post by JES on Mar 17, 2006 19:49:45 GMT -8
I would bet that engagement in an activity involving so many unforeseeable circumstances and individual human behaviors would be viewed under a far different light than what we are discussing here- buying a hunk of metal (nicely machined, of course) and putting it to an "undisclosed and unauthorized" use. But, I'm not a lawyer, so...................... I'm not saying the sky will fall on this part or even steering Luis away from selling them. In fact, I have stated long ago that I wanted one. However, playing the Devils Advocate, no matter the purpose, or how well written the waiver is, if something bad happens a lawsuit will probably follow. Additionally, (I believe) the fact that someone signs a waiver doesn't waive the survivor’s right to sue. Defending yourself against a lawsuit (no matter how frivolous) is very expensive. Finally, I'm not a lawyer either, so............"
|
|
|
Post by Broxton Carol on Mar 18, 2006 3:31:34 GMT -8
The way this line of thought is going is negative. The world is so full of negatives it gets to be an unhappy place. Luis has a great thing here. We need to place orders and forget the NEGATIVE and be positive. When I used to fly, the shop wanted 11.000 for an engine job, which was a rip off. I rebuilt it myself, to new specs, and it started on the first spin of the prop,(by hand)! I flew that plane year after year, and finally sold it. I suppose I worried, that it would throw a rod, or something would come off that first test flight after I got it running again, but it didnt. It was a lot of worry for nothing. That engine cost me about 3500.00 to do myself. What Luis has done, is improve on the best superior old design, and made it better. How many nozzle failures have there been since 1964? Likely NONE and if there was one or so, who cares. Lets use Luis idea to the maxx, and enjoy it, in the spirit he created it.
|
|
|
Post by JES on Mar 18, 2006 4:45:38 GMT -8
Broxton Chuck, It's not us that Luis is worried about. It's a sobering statement on our society when half of the purchase price you pay for a ladder is for liability insurance. Remember, no one is saying that Luis shouldn't do this. He's an educated man who realizes that in today's litigious society you need to carefully consider everything you do in order to protect yourself and family. OBTW, in 2005 there were over 1,104,766 lawyers practicing law in the U.S. ;D
|
|